>>> WELL, THIS IS QUITE AN HONOR.
JOINING US NOW FORMER SECRETARY OF STATE TREASURY SECRETARY AND
WHITE HOUSE CHIEF OF STAFF JAMES BAKER.
WE ALSO HAVE NBC NEWS SENIOR
CORRESPONDENT TOM BROKAW ALONG WITH MIKE BARNICLE, WILLIE GEIST
AND OF COURSE JOE AND ME. MR. SECRETARY, FROM A CHIEF OF
STAFF PERSPECTIVE, I'D LOVE TO KNOW HOW YOU WOULD CHARACTERIZE
HOW THIS ADMINISTRATION IS BEING RUN.
>> WELL, I THINK THEY'RE GETTING SOME THINGS DONE.
AND I HAVE TO CONFESS TO YOU THAT I VOTED FOR DONALD TRUMP
BECAUSE -- >> MY GOODNESS.
>> I'M A REPUBLICAN. AND I'M A CONSERVATIVE.
AND I THOUGHT THE COUNTRY WAS MOVING IN THE WRONG DIRECTION.
THEY'VE DONE SOME THINGS RIGHT AND THEY'VE DONE SOME THINGS
WRONG. WHICH YOU MIGHT EXPECT OF ANY
ADMINISTRATION. BASICALLY I THINK THE MOST
IMPORTANT THING IS THAT THE PRESIDENT EMPOWER A STRONG CHIEF
OF STAFF GIVE HIM OR HER THE AUTHORITY TO RUN THE PLACE AND
THEN BACK THEM UP. AND THAT THEY FIND A WAY TO
IMPOSE SOME SORT OF MESSAGE DISCIPLINE ON THE
ADMINISTRATION. >> IF THAT PERSON ISN'T REINCE
PRIEBUS, WHO DO YOU THINK COULD FILL THAT POSITION GIVEN THE
DYNAMICS? >> I'M NOT SAYING IT SHOULDN'T
BE REINCE PRIEBUS. REINCE PRIEBUS DID A VERY FINE
JOB RUNNING THE RNC. AND DID A GOOD JOB IN THE
CAMPAIGN. BUT HE NEEDS TO BE EMPOWERED.
I SAID BACK IN FEBRUARY, YOU GOT ALL THESE POWER CENTERS IN THIS
WHITE HOUSE, AND THEY OVERLAP AND THEY OVERLAP ACROSS DOMESTIC
AND INTERNATIONAL THINGS. AND SO EVERYBODY IS FIGHTING FOR
TURF AND JOCKEYING FOR POSITION. AND HE REALLY NEEDS TO GET A
HANDLE ON THAT. WE HAD A LITTLE OF THAT IN THE
REAGAN ADMINISTRATION IN THE FIRST MONTHS.
AND PRESIDENT REAGAN WAS PRETTY GOOD ABOUT SAYING, HUH-UH,
HERE'S THE WAY IT'S GOING TO BE. >> BUT HOW DO YOU CONTROL A
PRESIDENT WHO LIKES TO TWEET? BY THE WAY, ON HIS LAST MIDDLE
EASTERN TRIP HE MADE A VERY STRONG SPEECH IN SAUDI ARABIA,
FOR EXAMPLE, ABOUT THE NEED OF THE ISLAMIC WORLD TO GET
TOGETHER. AND THEN HE GOES TO EUROPE AND
HE KIND OF UNWINDS THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN THE UNITED
STATES AND EUROPE. AND THAT GETS THE BIG PLAY BACK
HERE. >> WELL, THAT GETS THE BIG PLAY
BECAUSE THE ATLANTIC ALLIANCE HAS BEEN THE FOUNDATION OF PEACE
AND SECURITY IN EUROPE FOR OVER 40 YEARS.
IT'S REALLY IMPORTANT THAT WE KEEP IT GOING.
AND KEEPING IT GOING AND HEALTHY MEANS YOU HAVE TO MANAGE IT.
AND YOU HAVE TO WORK IT. AND YOU HAVE TO STICK WITH IT.
THERE WERE PLENTY OF DISAGREEMENTS WHEN WE WERE DOING
ALL THAT STUFF WITH EUROPE, BUT YOU DON'T TAKE THOSE
DISAGREEMENTS PUBLIC. THERE ARE WAYS TO GET THAT DONE,
I THINK. >> JOE HAS A QUESTION FOR YOU.
JOE. >> YEAH, MR. SECRETARY, HOW
IMPORTANT IS IT TO HAVE A CHIEF OF STAFF THAT GOES IN AND HAS A
POWER TO HIRE AND FIRE? HAS THE POWER TO SAY TO THE
PRESIDENT, LISTEN, I'LL RUN THIS PLACE, YOU RUN THE COUNTRY BUT
YOU'VE GOT TO LET ME RUN THIS PLACE.
HOW IMPORTANT IS THAT FOR ANY CHIEF OF STAFF?
>> IT'S VERY, VERY IMPORTANT, JOE.
IT'S WHAT I SAID WHEN I WAS ANSWERING MIKA'S QUESTION.
HE NEEDS TO EMPOWER A STRONG CHIEF OF STAFF.
WHEN REAGAN -- YOU KNOW, I LED TWO CAMPAIGNS AGAINST RONALD
REAGAN THEN HE ASKED ME TO BE HIS WHITE HOUSE CHIEF OF STAFF.
AND HE LET ME STAFF THE WHITE HOUSE.
AND I STAFFED IT WITH PEOPLE WHO UNDERSTOOD GOVERNMENT, WHO'D
BEEN IN WASHINGTON BEFORE AND WHO WANTED TO GET THINGS DONE.
AND I THINK THAT'S ONE OF THE REASONS WE WERE ABLE TO GET
SOMETHING DONE. >> WILLIE.
>> DOES THIS REMIND YOU MAYBE AN EXTREME VERSION OF WHAT WE HAD
THE FIRST YEAR OR SO OF BILL CLINTON'S ADMINISTRATION WHERE
THERE WASN'T ORDER IN CLINTON'S ADMINISTRATION AND HE SAW
HIMSELF IN THE CENTER OF ALL ACTIVITY, THE DOOR WAS ALWAYS
OPEN, PEOPLE WERE ALWAYS COMING TO HIM.
IS THAT THE PROBLEM INSTEAD OF HAVING THE TYPE OF STRUCTURE YOU
SET UP AND EISENHOWER SET UP WHERE IT WAS A PYRAMID?
>> THAT'S PART OF THE PROBLEM. BUT YOU NEED SOMEONE -- HE NEEDS
TO DEPUTIZE AND GIVE AUTHORITY TO SOMEONE TO RUN THAT WHITE
HOUSE. AND THEY BADLY NEED TO
PRIORITIZE THE THINGS THAT THEY'RE GOING TO FOCUS ON.
>> RIGHT. >> AND THE FOCUS IS SHIFTING
BACK AND FORTH EVERY DAY. ONE DAY IT'S TAX REFORM, ONE DAY
IT'S HEALTH CARE, ONE DAY IT'S RUSSIA.
AND YOU REALLY NEED TO KEEP THE FOCUS -- KEEP YOUR EYE ON THE
BALL. THAT'S THE ONLY WAY YOU'RE GOING
TO GET STUFF THROUGH THE CONGRESS.
AND WE JUDGE OUR PRESIDENTS ON THE BASIS OF HOW MUCH OF THEIR
POLICY PROPOSALS THEY CAN GET ENACTED INTO LAW.
>> MR. SECRETARY, YOU'RE KNOWN AS ONE OF THE GREAT WISE MEN OF
THE REPUBLICAN PARTY AND OF AMERICAN POLITICS MORE BROADLY.
HAS THAT WHITE HOUSE CALLED YOU? HAS THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED
STATES PICKED UP THE PHONE AND REACHED OUT TO YOU SINCE HE
BECAME PRESIDENT? >> NO, BUT I DID MEET WITH HIM
IN MAY DURING THE ELECTION CAMPAIGN.
>> HAS ANYONE REACHED OUT TO YOU FROM THE WHITE HOUSE?
>> NO, BUT I'VE BEEN IN THERE. TO SEE GARY COHN ABOUT A CARBONS
DIVIDEND PROPOSAL THAT I THINK WOULD BE A PERFECT SOLUTION TO
THIS PARIS AGREEMENT PROBLEM. AND I MET AT THE TIME PRIEBUS
WAS THERE, CONWAY WAS THERE, COHN WAS THERE.
BUT THEY DIDN'T ADOPT THE PROPOSAL.
>> IF YOU GOT TO SIT ACROSS THAT DESK IN THE OVAL OFFICE FROM
DONALD TRUMP THIS AFTERNOON, FOR EXAMPLE, BEYOND HIRING A STRONG
CHIEF OF STAFF, WHAT WOULD YOU SAY TO HIM?
WHAT WOULD YOU TELL HIM ABOUT BEING PRESIDENT?
>> WELL, I THINK THAT IT WOULD BE GOOD IF THERE WERE A PEER IN
THERE, A PEER, THAT COULD LOOK AT HIM AND SAY, YOU KNOW, RONALD
REAGAN WROTE IN HIS BOOK ONE THING HE LIKED ABOUT JIM BAKER
HE WOULD TELL ME WHAT I THOUGHT EVEN THOUGH I DIDN'T WANT TO
HEAR IT. AND GEORGE BUSH SAID THE SAME
THING, THAT'S THE MOST IMPORTANT QUALITY THAT I THINK AN
ASSISTANT OR CHIEF OF STAFF CERTAINLY CAN PRESENT TO THE
PRESIDENT. YOU'VE GOT TO BE ABLE TO SAY
THIS DOESN'T MAKE SENSE, DON'T DO IT.
I'M NOT SURE THERE'S ANYBODY IN THERE NOW THAT CAN SAY THAT TO
THE PRESIDENT. >> SHOULD HE BAG THE CLIMATE
CHANGE TREATY? >> I DON'T THINK -- I WOULD HOPE
NOT. I'M WITH SECRETARY OF STATE
TILLERSON ON THAT. I THINK WE OUGHT TO STAY IN IT
AND RENEGOTIATE IT. IF IT'S TOO ONEROUS, FINE.
DO LIKE WE'RE DOING WITH NAFTA. MAKE IT BETTER.
THERE'S NOTHING WRONG WITH DOING THAT.
ANOTHER POSSIBILITY I WOULD THINK WOULD BE TO SEND IT TO THE
SENATE. OBAMA SHOULD HAVE SENT IT TO THE
SENATE. IT IS A TREATY.
COME ON. AND HE WANTED TO SLIP IT THROUGH
AS AN EXECUTIVE AGREEMENT. SO PRESIDENT TRUMP COULD SAY,
HUH-UH, WE'RE GOING TO SEND IT TO THE SENATE AND WE'LL SEE IF
THE AMERICAN PEOPLE ARE BEHIND IT.
IF THE SENATE DOESN'T VOTE FOR IT, CAN'T SUPPORT IT, WE KNOW
THAT THE AMERICAN PEOPLE MIGHT HAVE SERIOUS RESERVATIONS.
>> MR. SECRETARY, NONE OF US HERE HAVE A CLUE AS TO THE DAILY
TICK TOCK OF THE PRESIDENCY IN THAT OVAL OFFICE.
YOU DO. COULD YOU SCHOOL US ON THE
IMPORTANCE OF MANAGING A PRESIDENT'S TIME?
WHAT HAPPENS DURING THE COURSE OF THE DAY AND WHAT COULD BE
DONE TO SORT OF MINIMIZE THE CHAOS THAT SEEMS TO SURROUND
THIS OVAL OFFICE? >> WELL, TO THE EXTENT THERE MAY
BE CHAOS IN THERE AND I'M NOT ACKNOWLEDGING THAT IT'S CHAOS,
BUT THERE ARE OVERLAPPING RESPONSIBILITIES AND
AUTHORITIES. WHAT HE NEEDS TO DO IS MAKE SURE
THAT HE ENFORCES MESSAGE DISCIPLINE ON THAT WHITE HOUSE.
AND THAT MEANS TO SOME EXTENT ON HIMSELF AS WELL.
>> YEAH. >> SO THAT YOU CAN PRIORITIZE
WHAT YOUR FOCUS IS. AND HE NEEDS TO RESOLVE THESE
INTERNAL CONFLICTS. NOT EVER GOING TO GET ANYTHING
DONE JOINTLY IF YOU DON'T GET RID OF ALL THAT INTERNAL
CONFLICT. >> DID YOU HAVE THE POWER TO SAY
NO TO PEOPLE WHO WANTED TO SEE THE PRESIDENT WHO CAME TO YOUR
OFFICE FIRST? DID YOU HAVE THE POWER TO SAY
NO? >> YES.
WE HAD AN UNDERSTANDING WITH THE PRESIDENT -- WE HAD AN
UNDERSTANDING. ANY CABINET OFFICER THAT NEEDED
TO SEE THE PRESIDENT COULD SEE HIM WITHIN 24 HOURS OR MAYBE
LESS IF IT WAS URGENT. AND ANY ONE OF THEM COULD SEE
HIM ALONE IF THEY WANTED TO. >> RIGHT.
>> BUT WE HAD A DEAL WITH THE PRESIDENT THAT HE WOULD DEBRIEF
US ON ANY OF THOSE MEETINGS THAT HE HAD WITH ANYBODY ALONE,
WHETHER IT'S BILL CASEY OR AL -- WHOEVER IT MIGHT BE.
>> TOM BROKAW, DO YOU AGREE? AND DO YOU THINK THIS PRESIDENT
HAS THE CAPACITY TO -- WHAT'S THE WORD, SORT OF GIVE HIMSELF A
LITTLE BIT OF SPACE BETWEEN HIM AND SOMEONE ELSE WHO THEN IS
GIVEN THE RIGHT TO MAKE DECISIONS?
>> WELL, I WOULD HOPE SO. THERE WAS ALL THE TALK HE WAS
GOING TO PIVOT AND BECOME MORE PRESIDENTIAL, BUT WHAT WE'RE SAY
SEEING BASED ON THE EXPERIENCES OF PEOPLE IN NEW YORK AND OTHER
PLACES HAD, HE'S OPERATING AS HE DID KIND OF WILDCAT ENTREPRENEUR
IN THE REAL ESTATE BUSINESS. AND HE DOESN'T HAVE MUCH
TOLERANCRANCE FOR HEARING A CONY POINT OF VIEW.
ONE OF MR. BAKER'S GREAT LINES IN MY JUDGMENT IS YOU DON'T GO
INTO A NEGOTIATION WITHOUT LOOKING AT THE ISSUES THROUGH
THE EYES OF YOUR OPPONENT TO TRY TO UNDERSTAND THAT FIRST.
AND YOU DON'T SEE THAT WITH HIM. I THINK THE COUNTRY MORE THAN
ANYTHING ELSE LONGS FOR THE DIVISIONS IN WASHINGTON TO BE
HEALED AND PEOPLE TO TALK TO EACH OTHER.
DOESN'T MEAN THEY'RE GOING TO ARRIVE AT THE SAME PLACE AT THE
SAME TIME, BUT YOU OUGHT TO HAVE SOME KIND OF A CIVIL DISCOURSE.
>> YOU KNOW, THE PRESIDENT HAS A GOOD TEAM.
HE HAS SELECTED A VERY GOOD CABINET.
HE HAS SOME REALLY GOOD PEOPLE IN THERE.
HE NEEDS TO EMPOWER THEM. >> RIGHT.
>> AND LISTEN TO THEM. >> AND NOT UNDERMINE THEM.
>> AND, YOU KNOW, THAT MAY BE DIFFICULT BECAUSE AS TOM
INDICATED HE'S BEEN A SOLE PROPRIETOR, VERY SUCCESSFUL
BUSINESSMAN, RAN A GOOD BUSINESS, DID WELL.
BUT HE WAS THE ULTIMATE POWER AND THE ULTIMATE AUTHORITY.
HE DIDN'T EVEN HAVE A BOARD OF DIRECTORS TO WHICH HE HAD TO
ANSWER. >> RIGHT.
>> NOR STOCKHOLDERS, PUBLIC STOCKHOLDERS.
SO HE'S NOT USED TO DOING IT THAT WAY.
>> AND NOT USED TO LISTENING. >> WE'VE BEEN ASKING CHIEF OF
STAFF QUESTIONS.
NOW I'M GOING TO ASK YOU A SECRETARY OF STATE QUESTION,
WHICH IS THE AMERICA FIRST POSTURE OF THE TRUMP WHITE
HOUSE. WE SAW IT AGAIN LAST WEEK AT
NATO. WE SAW IT AT THE G7.
IS THAT AN EFFECTIVE WAY TO CONDUCT OURSELVES IN THE WORLD?
>> IT'S NOT AN INEFFECTIVE WAY IN MY VIEW IF YOU DO IT RIGHT.
YOU HAVE TO BE CAREFUL THAT YOU DON'T TURN INTO AN ISOLATIONIST
OR INTO A TOTALLY PROTECTIONIST ADMINISTRATION.
BUT LOOK, NOBODY THOUGHT THAT DONALD TRUMP COULD WIN THE
PRESIDENCY. HE DID IT AND HE DID IT IN
EFFECT ALMOST ALL BY HIMSELF. VERY FEW PEOPLE WOULD HAVE TOLD
YOU ON ELECTION NIGHT THAT HE'S GOING TO BE OUR NEXT PRESIDENT.
SO HE FELT THE PULSE OF THE AMERICAN PEOPLE.
AND THAT'S WHAT THE PULSE IS. NOW, THERE ARE WAYS TO DO THAT.
THERE ARE WAYS TO SAFEGUARD AMERICA'S INTERESTS WITHOUT
TOTALLY WITHDRAWING FROM THE WORLD THE WAY WE DID IN THE
AFTERMATH OF WORLD WAR I, WHICH GENERATED A WORLD WAR II.
>> DOES IT CONCERN YOU, FOR EXAMPLE, TO HEAR CHANCELLOR
MERKEL LAST WEEK -- >> THAT CONCERNS ME, BUT I
DON'T -- WELL, THAT CONCERNS ME, BUT I DON'T THINK THAT THE
PRESIDENT IS ENTIRELY TO BLAME FOR THAT.
IT'S A TWO-WAY STREET. GERMANY IS RUNNING A HUMONGOUS
TRADE SURPLUS THAT THEY OUGHT NOT TO BE RUNNING AGAINST
EVERYBODY, NOT JUST AGAINST US. BUT THE ATLANTIC ALLIANCE IS --
WAS THE BASIS OF PEACE AND SECURITY IN EUROPE FOR THE FULL
40 YEARS -- AND IT'S REALLY IMPORTANT THAT THE UNITED STATES
AND GERMANY MAINTAIN A GOOD RELATIONSHIP.
>> JOE, JUMP BACK IN. >> WELL, MR. SECRETARY, WE'RE
TALKING ABOUT GERMANY HERE AND MIKA AND I HOSTED AN ATLANTIC
COUNCIL MEETING ONE YEAR WHERE THERE WERE SO MANY GERMANS THAT
WERE SO GRATEFUL TO YOUR OLD FRIEND GEORGE H.W. BUSH FOR
STANDING UP FOR THE REUNIFICATION OF GERMANY WHEN
THE FRENCH AND SO MANY OTHER PEOPLE WERE STANDING IN THE WAY.
BUT HE WAS INSISTENT. MODERN GERMANY REALLY IN LARGE
PART OWES A GREAT DEAL TO GEORGE H.W. BUSH.
AND WE ALL DO. COULD YOU REFLECT ON THE
PRESIDENCY OF GEORGE H.W. BUSH, A ONE-TERM PRESIDENT WHO THE
FURTHER WE GET AWAY FROM THE FOUR YEARS HE SERVED THE MORE WE
REALIZE WHAT A GREAT PRESIDENT HE ACTUALLY WAS ON THE WORLD
STAGE? >> WELL, THANK YOU FOR SAYING
THAT, JOE, BECAUSE ONE OF THE GREAT JOYS OF MY 87th YEAR OF
LIFE IS THAT I'M SEEING THE PUBLIC BEGIN TO APPRECIATE WHAT
GEORGE H.W. BUSH DID IN HIS ONE-TERM PRESIDENCY.
AND DO SO DURING HIS LIFETIME. IT'S REALLY REWARDING TO SEE
THAT BECAUSE I TELL PEOPLE -- OF COURSE I'M BIAS, BUT I TELL
PEOPLE HE WAS THE VERY BEST ONE-TERM PRESIDENT WE'VE EVER
HAD AND ONE OF THE VERY BEST PRESIDENTS OF ALL TIME.
YOU LOOK AT SOME OF THE THINGS HE DID, GERMAN UNIFICATION WAS
QUITE AN ACCOMPLISHMENT WHEN YOU THINK ABOUT IT, JOE.
YOU MENTIONED SOME OF THE PEOPLE WHO WERE AGAINST IT.
YOU SAID THE FRENCH. YEAH, THE FRENCH WERE AGAINST
IT, BUT ALSO THE BRITS WERE AGAINST IT.
AND ALSO THE SOVIET UNION WAS AGAINST IT.
AND AMERICA AND GERMANY TOGETHER GOT THAT DONE.
VERY NARROW WINDOW OF OPPORTUNITY.
AND WE GOT IT DONE AND THAT WAS BECAUSE OF THE LEADERSHIP OF
GEORGE H.W. BUSH. >> SECRETARY JAMES BAKER, THANK
YOU SO MUCH. AND TOM BROKAW, THANK YOU AS
WELL. >> I HAVEN'T HAD A CHANCE,
NEITHER HAS JIM, TO SAY HOW MUCH WE SHARE THE LOSS OF YOUR
FATHER. >> THANK YOU VERY MUCH.
THANK YOU SO MUCH. >> YEAH, YOUR DAD AND I DID A
LOT OF INTERVIEWS TOGETHER THROUGH THE YEARS.
AND WE MISS HIM. >> HE WAS TOUGH TOO, RIGHT?
>> HE WAS PLENTY TOUGH. >> CHALLENGED YOU.
>> EVEN IF HE DISAGREED HE WOULD SAY,