>> It doesn't seem like in 2020 public education is in a particularly good place. Whether you're
a family who is wondering when or if your kids will even be able to go back to school.
Whether it will be safe if they do that. Or if you're just worried about the federal government's
approach to public education over the past few years.
You probably have more than a few concerns which is why I am very glad to welcome to
the show. The author of schoolhouse burning public education. And the assault on American
democracy, author and professor at the University of South Carolina law school, Derek black.
Welcome to the damage report.
>> Yeah, thanks for having me on. >> Glad to talk about this important topic.
So tell me a little bit about, I know that we're gonna go into some of the history too.
But how would you rate the current status of public education and the government's approach
to it?
>> Well, I mean, it's really a tale of two different worlds. And we have a lot of relatively
well financed school districts and communities out there. That they can care for their kids
at home or they've got new buildings and lots of space outside. So that they can accommodate
sort of in person.
And then we have these other group of kids who don't have good access to internet, encountering
a lot of problems. Sort of economic and otherwise, and their schools are underfunded and have
enormous skyrocketing costs to buy PPE. Retrofit the buildings and so we really just have two
entirely different situations.
That's not really new at all, it's just that the pandemic has exentuated the problem.
>> Well I know that there has been a discussion about what the obligation of the federal government
should be. To revive additional funding both for the context 2020 but specifically for
instance for things like PPE.
So far, how would you rate that. I guess the level of resources that have been committed
by the federal government to make reopening the schools. And all of that as easy and safe
as possible. Especially for as you point out the school districts that don't necessarily
have the property tax base.
Is that they'll have the resources they need if the government doesn't provide them.
>> I mean, it's been a pretty abysmal response if you compare how much money Congress gave
public schools. During the Great Recession versus how much they just gave them for the
pandemic. I mean, we're talking about a fraction of the dollars this time.
And to be clear, during the Great Recession, it wasn't its costs were skyrocketing, it's
just that local tax base was plummeting. Now what we have is local tax base plummeting
and costs going up. And Congress only allocating a quarter on the dollar compared to what it
did last time.
So a lot of our school districts are in a really bad situation having to think about
layoff cleaning staff, layoff teachers. It is dismal in a lot of our communities. And
I think a lot of those families are really worried about their children falling behind
in a way that they'll never catch up.
>> So, in your look back at the status of public education. How I believe you described
it as an erosion over time of its place in America. Was there a time where things were
significantly better that we didn't see the sort of pattern that you're talking about
right now?
And how far back do we have to go to get to that time.
>> What? As all would say, America started out with a great idea and has been reaching
to try to achieve it even since its founding. So there is no sort of great old days, in
which our public schools are integrated and fully funded.
I would never make that claim. But what we do have our good old days so to speak, when
leaders of both parties were committed to the idea of public education. And that's what
has really changed in the last five to 10 years that we have a 200 year plus history.
Where we have our leaders in our country committed to the expansion of education. Because they
say public education is the foundation of our democracy. It is the thing that we all
need that will guarantee the preservation of all of our other rights. But now we're
in a situation where we have a president, calling them government schools in a pejorative
sense.
The secretary of education, calling them out. At dead end. And the President and his platform
saying that his goal is to provide private school choice to every single child in America.
So we have one, I'm not trying to make it political, is just the facts. We have one
party that for the first time in history is completely arrayed against the idea of public
education.
So we are in a new bad era that we have never seen before on that.
>> So the privatization that you're talking about there, the charter schools and all of
that. It was pretty clear when Betsy DeVos was chosen. It's that she wasn't being brought
in to bring public education back to where it needs to be.
And so I guess you've already sort of alluded to your views on her in that role as a complete
non-expert. She seems like a disaster for public education. What do you think about
Betsy DeVos in particular? What effect has she had in the years that she's been in US
government.
>> I mean, she's been more effective than I thought she would. I've been involved in
federal policy and testified as an expert before. And when she first took the job, I
said the fact that she's taking the job shows how little she knows. Because if she really
understood the lack of power that this job currently has, she wouldn't want it.
So I thought, well, she'll be a sideshow. Congress really reined in the Secretary of
Education following the Duncan years because he'd overreached. But she took the job and
what's amazed me is how much influence she has asserted. And it's partly because of how
brazen she is. That she doesn't care what the law says, she doesn't care what American
public wants or needs.
I mean, I think even Congress got caught off guard. She's been in office for three years,
Congress passed the corona virus Act sending out although not enough. Sending out several
hundred millions to our school and we're thinking, you know what she'll put privatization aside.
At least for a little while, given that we're in a national pandemic.
She'll let that that agenda go. But as soon as the checks arrived at the Department of
Education. She was already talking about how she could exploit the pandemic for her private
school agenda. And she lost three or four cases in about as many weeks recently. And
Trump appointed Judge even said in regard to her new policies trying to drive more money
to private schools.
The Trump appointed judge said, the law cannot mean the opposite of what it says. Now, the
idea that a federal judge would have to say that to a federal official is quite shocking.
And so, she just caught us all off guard with her brazen attempt. I mean, for the younger
listeners out there and folks who got student loans.
She was basically held in contempt of court because she insisted on continuing to try
to collect student loan debt. When the Law Center students didn't owe it. I mean, that's
outside of the K through 12 context. But the law she thinks obviously doesn't apply to
her. >> Yeah, it's just amazing.
And so yeah, I agree she's been very effective. Is she emblematic of a enduring change in
the Republican Party's approach to education, do you think? Or hypothetically if Trump were
to lose and someday some other republican were to run? Is this like the new default
position of the republican party that charter schools privatization is the way to go.
Or will we get back to two parties that might disagree on the level of resources that should
go to public schools. But that they both sort of at least fundamentally agree that they
serve a purpose and should exist. >> Well, it's difficult to sort of predict
the future for obvious reasons.
But I think what we see is a party that has continually been captured by fringe ideas.
Not because Republican voters on the whole believe in those ideas but because the big
money donors believe in those ideas. And maybe a majority of the people who show up at a
primary believe in those ideas.
So I mean it's not news to say Donald Trump doesn't really represent the values of the
Republican Party on a number. Of policies, but man he sure is popular. And I think the
same thing on the privatization and the vouchers that the sort of libertarian wing. The sort
of anti tax wing of the party, the sort of tea party wing of the party.
They believe that in the same way at the federal level, Social security and health care are
extractions of wealth from rich people. They say the same thing about public education
at the local level, which is yeah, I came from very humble beginnings. And that they
Derrick black basically extracted wealth from his neighbors so that he could get a public
education.
If you look at state and local resources, the overwhelming majority of them are spent
on public education. So it is public enemy number one for that wing of the Republican
Party. And so I guess to answer your question, it depends on whether the party itself is
going to be a big tent party.
And begin to reorganise itself around common values, or it's gonna continue to be dominated
by this sort of small fringe element. And now it's being dominated by a small fringe
element. >> Is there on the other side some sort of
countervailing movement. Either at the federal level or in individual states to to strike
against this.
This seemingly endless movement towards more privatization, more funding to charter schools
and things like that. Is there anything to balance that out?
>> Well, there has been in the last couple of years and it's been very encouraging. So
a lot of people tell they're black is frothing at the mouth liberal and the tool of the unions
or something like that.
But when you look at 2018 and 2019, you saw 10s of thousands of people in the streets.
Marching on state capitals in red states, not in New York, not in California. It started
in the hills of West Virginia, a state that voted for Donald Trump at 70, 75%.
And then it moved to Oklahoma, a place with similar numbers and then it moved to Arizona.
50,000 people marched on the Capital of Arizona demanding for the full funding of public education.
And 65% plus of voters voted against vouchers in Arizona. Right. And here in South Carolina,
we had the largest public protests on our State Capital grounds and decades.
It was flowing over into the streets here. And so I think what we see is that the small
free element has been gaining steam for a while, and we kinda ignored them. But they
finally push so far that regular folks who don't want to politicize education. Regular
folks said, I have got to take to the streets.
And so that gives me a lot of hope. But, we got to keep fighting it because the people
on the other side are just as determined and more well financed to be quite honest. So
I think that public education advocates have got to fight.
>> Yeah, it's not hard to imagine why that pushes towards more federal money going to
charter schools.
Would receive a lot of financial support in that movement. But everyone should definitely
take a look at the book schoolhouse burning, public education and the assault on American
democracy. Derek Black we really appreciate you joining us on the show today and lending
your expertise. >> Thanks. Appreciate it.