curl lawrence wilkerson former chief of staff too
or secretary of state called powell
co-worker someone
there'll be a great leader uh...
as you said
the beginning here carl
in with that
colin powell for a long long time
her career when he
yes you did become his chief of staff
uh... at the state department
how'd you feel about word for the bush administration and word for colin powell
in that context
i'm a republican uh... soul right every problem
working for a republican administration
by that time august of two thousand two
i did have concerns about this particular republican administration
because it looked extremely unilateral
it looked extremely arrogant
and it looked as if it was uh...
operating in a way out of pedicle to the way it is talked about during uh...
campaigning and during the first
the
confirmation testimony
series for the ministers and so forth
uh... they talked about humility that total
talk about achieving about the power of the world of papers freedom phrases like
that
so i i i didn't have any problem but my main allegiance
uh... abu allah live right out my main allegiance was for the man who had
worked for for several years
and whom i kinda looked at an african american version of the white house in
our
colin powell that was my principal reasons
for working in in those right now what's this
the administration
what was your first
warning sign if you remember refund
now this is really out of balance here or you know your bipartisan interesting
or not i don't know armored brodeur thirty one year
um...
and i found that the incredible
uh... arrogant
and lack of humility of the secretary of defense now i'm still to be
stunning almost right off the bat
i was charged by ambassador hot foods which are talking about
present council on foreign relations that was my boston
to start work toward canon george marshall had done many years before
uh... talks between the military joint staff
in the state park politics like devon i did that immediately
within a month or two the military had to back away from it and i finally got
the reason out of one of the kernels with whom we've been meeting
he's dead uh... rochelle infantry that you made with anybody from the state
department you're dead
so
i mean this was an incredibly arrogant man who took upon himself to the power
of the entire interagency group with the vice president's blessing of course
and be required to cut the state department for that matter other members
of the present cabinet out of any serious deliberations
obvious question becomes how because as we see
and she can stop article
about done on so he would often just not carry out for receiving given by the
president
weather was bad working katrina
or other matters
now
normally of course existence would not be allowed to get away with this
of how was uh... rumsfeld uh... allowed to carry on his own policies will have
the white house and i think that nicole question i think it's a question
historians will be asking for years to come
arbitrator has reported the president on state i think and
that was hurting c_n_n_ international career budget dr right
cheaper not disciplining the statutory decisionmaking system centered on the
national security council which is low
warburton responsibility
and heat for not helping her
uh... because it really almost impossible for the national scary but
you do it if the president not behind the national security brother and i just
don't believe the part of the water w to detached in
into that attachment float the vice president do with anything but detached
and uh... you know i'm i'd use robert alex phrase for kissinger and nixon
uh...
cheney was co-president uh... i'd even go pat go for them and say that for
national security issues and other critical issues
cheney with the press
since insists it is
because people said
uh... a lot but
we weren't their and so that's all
partisan as in how that happens
how was he called president or in charge
the vice president would simply just
isn't and give the order
has sparked or would you
where the presence of the murder scene he was in a message so little boat but i
i think uh... i think it's fair to play that dick cheney lava most uh... adept
the bureaucratic in triple overtime reversing
uh... anyway anyways paired with another one that was pretty good but not a good
evening i'm donald rumsfeld
and and that is due to every way and the book to stymie what i call the statutory
profit the legislative decision making process
let me give you two examples
on north korea for example every time uh... colin powell and jim kelly that
respect her prestatyn pacific one open some meaningful
talks with the north koreans either through the vic's party process or
bilateral talks
dick cheney would get there and and and and cut it off but he wouldn't cut it
off as the vice president
he would get the last bite at the apple in the oval office along with the
president he would talk to president and the cutting at all
on iran he did and an entirely different way
uh... we never produced a national security does
vision document on iran policy
that gave dick cheney by default what he wanted which was no talks at all with
the regina tehran
so all he had to do their work to make sure you just pointed out
that the right people didn't come to the meetings
that they didn't come prepared that they weren't uh... well briefed or they
appeared to be dot will brief we call it the rope the built quality
uh... and that way he got the procedures within the statutory process never pre
produced a decision
which is exactly what he wanted no decision than they were big no talk
on the other issues uh... miami's mild more gel women voter anger has been very
student point out from the way the cheney got domestic issues that he was
in favor of
uh... the one that bart points out very vividly as that
bush wanted to retreat thing done with regard to domestic taxes
and she wanted more than that done
we're still didn't know such a detailed over strong-arm the congress if the
congress to give the president the couple of things that he wanted
and a couple of things that she wanted the president clinton vetoed the bill
because you'd be vetoing what he wanted darryl cheney's everything he wanted
thirty minutes
because this was an incredibly steve mann operating with a guy who's never
been in the federal government before
and i must say it was pretty much detach from the veto
forces
as i can you tell that story
if you're being gentle
there comes a point where you have to say
like i just was not bright that he couldn't figure out any its
or aren't you know qualities say that
stands lives
uh... one thing before we could see you mentioned ropa go can you
sent out a little bit for us what what's rope-a-dope
lifeguarding if you come to the meeting the the meeting to the national security
council or the meeting directly below that what we call the printable meeting
or even a deputy meeting which include
third level
anne you don't come with the primary anticipate that the front alternating
rumsfeld doesn't show up
you can someone who's representing you but not in power to make decisions not
briefed him on the material necessary to make a decision
so you just started the process
uh... could you show up yourself a deep throat on the paper on the table if they
all got i'm so busy i have a chance to read anything
i need to read all this i can't make any decisions involve read all this
you've just started the process again and when you're eight hundred-pound
gorilla doing that
like colin powell and condi rice and boil oneself
and the president doesn't step in the middle of it in place
doctors
off argue obvious it's pretty much that simple it doesn't get said that way but
it is that simple
or chief of staff in this case indy car didn't step in and say the same thing in
the back it up with the president of
at the principle by the bulletin
then you're going to have that happen all the time in unfortunately that's not
what happened
richard haas covered this pretty well
in his new book which is just out call war of uh... necessity warped choice
well it's is it about this in the city of the week ineffectual
all and altogether that bright
leader who's up on an end to this nonsense
if you don't want to say that i had i get that suppose i want to move on to
what broke the camel's back for you
uh... we're trying to grow alone for this and she was there for colin powell
at what point did you say well alright look we've had a
one of these things that i thought we read about
but this really does it for me i can't go on
well paper
two thousand four i believe it was um...
powell came through the door to our offices we had a joining offices and
andy instead
he really it just dropped the bombshell on these deborah coming up
some photos come out from place called hubbell grape in the rock
and these photos are going to really be bad they're gonna show abuse of
detainees and
and i want you to get to the bottom of this i want you to develop a chronology
our know-how we've got there
uh... my put my lawyer my legal adviser william h tab before uh... on the legal
aspects of what you will to work together and so i i i began compiling
adopted subclass five non class but doctors by began looking into the armed
forces
involvement in this i began looking in the c_i_a_ and contractor involvement
and by the time we got to the election and the two thousand four hyatt
put together quite a
stack of papers is not the conduit put it
a chronology here that you know how do we do here
uh... analysis together
by the time i left in january two thousand five and i saw that elbow
rumsfeld an offer to resign
uh... hearing to development held and so forth i saw that now no real
accountability with cheap veto a bill that was achieved with the but with
soldiers basically at that
at the point is their sergeant listadmin
uh... a few others
and so i began to to go around the war colleges and i have a little bit off
though it was pick-up publicly all around the room
to the war colleges in the immediate colleges and such like talk with
soldiers during slavery durban
and i i thought that when i would talk about these things i would get a lot of
push back instead of getting pushed back i've got confirmation
i got people taking me in the loop always been in the loop
quarters and tell me
you don't know the half of it let me tell you about what's going on
and so uh... if this all built up and pull october two thousand five and and i
hydrostatic combat views with myself if you will
uh... my wife point something dot to me about my loyalty to my country
outweighed my loyalty to the an administration or any particular manner
water
and i just
it you've got to be too much for aids so i started speaking out publicly stalker
laws
is
uh... if you believe it is for sure
and what happen in abu grabe is connected to
with the memos that were
written at the white house
what should be done about it
that network west into
um...
i'd like to say that
we we got two choices we the relief all those people we put in jail or or
reprimanded or or or injured their careers at double orient
are we leave them where they are and we go out to the people who directed them
to do the kinds of things that they did
uh... but i
that's the good visited me speaking
the realist in me the cynic in me
uh... looks at our process in our government says we don't have a
political will to do this
and even if we had the political will we don't have the political skill
to carry it out
and uh... i i think the president and present no bombing is recognizing that
was certain extent in the
they have to be taken to work this
uh... i it just with so many other challenges on his plate so many other
things that are does
more important to do than perhaps this is
i'm not trying to denigrate its importance but i'm just saying that the
financial economic crisis we confront iran iraq afghanistan north korea and so
forth
probably outweigh it in terms of
energy devoted to challenges
by understand why he failed what he thinks i i i don't like it as a citizen
at it and it doesn't make me feel good about my democratic republic not being
able to correct it
self and and the shotgun light on the dirty places
uh... but i again i just don't believe we've got the willamette skill to do it
legal assistants
uh... if you had a your way and we were going to
operate this democracy as as we should
are off with this co would go to the sectarian defense would go to a vice
president cheney
would go to president bush
what would you do about
i don't think there's any question that goes to charity
and uh... i think it
i'm increasingly of a mine that a lot of it goes to cheney and stop there
uh... not just because of the president's disinclination to do detail
but i also think cheney kept some things from the president
um... and what what i do about it i think that the best way to deal with
this probably would be to have thanks
so that we had for the man eleven commission
by that i mean it would be not congratulate mandated it would not be
presidentially mandated it would be cool mandated by both the president and the
congress
it would be comprised of people that
almost everyone can recognize have integrity have high character
and those people would be given the uh... marching orders and they would
take whatever time was necessary
have access to everything
and
their deliberations would be more or less final of course are not the point
that i eleven commission going to please everyone but it was that will camp it
down
the president will be able to get on with the challenges of their there are
more serious right now
and when this commission delivers its results i think will will have some cup
arsons will will have some of the fitting
uh... everyone won't like it but at least we would have examined it
thoroughly in the people who did the examination will be uh...
credible people
is justices justices suggesting broken
uh... and personal order the will they should have they should have or what i
would call records of party in our they should be able to turn it over to the
appropriate parties for prosecution
at a recommendation should be rendered with that
if they believe laws were broken and i believe uh... the proper authorities or
take action sixteen
seems to have it in equivocal and since i see someone asks
uh... the president uh... know about this abuse and he said well i think he
should have known or something along those lines uh... is there some chance
of dick cheney
just flat-out did orders and didn't tell the president
absolutely in my mind i have no problem with and i i i have no problem at all
the way
softball right now als
all the different abuses in what which one do you think
was the worst whether it's for sure want less wiretapping arresting u_s_ citizens
like to be a stripping them of law
all the rights of invasion of iraq they some false evidence
and we got a litany dishes from what would you say was
was the one that you thought was most egregious
you know that that the verbal prayer can answer
i think the ones we ought to deal with are the ones where there it is the
possibility that u_s_ in international alter a broken
um... the others the war of choice is richard dot just so aptly called it
um... that something that i think we all
are to blame for
of the congress voted by a lot of margins to give the president the right
to do that but they did for the first gulf war
uh... in fact very very wide margin the congress voted by
uh... so
uh... if you ask me
which well with the most egregious i think that probably have to point of
iraq because after all we've
probably killed somewhere between the d_o_d_ admits a hundred thousand markets
more like one of a million iraqis
uh... we've clearly uh... are approaching five thousand with uh...
american a coalition built
um... all this or what
we have a complete mess
uh... martin
hurts working is almost laughable
um... that search first of all took advantage of conditions are already
extinct on the ground and
stated to be putnam the conditions created largely by the iraqis
uh... in other words they finish their ethnic cleansing
uh... they had uh... finished making their their plays for political power
slaughtered for example
and then try to finish surge came in and simply at the advantage of that uh...
and to their credit and beats a minute
standard it but the political problems
that were supposed to be salt while biz
surgery that we're seeing more stability
have not been fall
they still do not have an or whether she revenue-sharing law
they still have not tackle recoup
uh... but kurds are evermore encroaching on arab territory
uh... the everyone is just waiting for the united states get down to a level
where it is no longer a viable referee
and then they're going to go at it again
meanwhile iran has uh... thing in the south looking at
chopped up pretty much having taken over the palpable
middle east
love to have you back on the program we're at a time for today balloon
really appreciate you coming on the interest on thank you