Speaker 1: Check this out.
Steve Doocy on fox news tried to add a little bit of common sense to the discussion this
morning on Fox and friends about why lawyer lawyers in general are able to give testimony
that is being used in the prosecution of donald trump.
And really they're talking about michael cohen.
Because one of the things that the right has started to harp on is how do you force lawyers
to break attorney client privilege?
How is it Michael Cohen is somehow being used to provide evidence against Trump when he
was Trump's lawyer?
There's a very simple explanation.
It's called the crime fraud exception.
Steve Doocy tries to explain it to his co-hosts.
They don't want to hear it.
When you try to insert fact on Fox and Friends, you are rewarded.
Speaker 2: So I think there's a lot to fight here.
And in the back of my mind in watching all this is we could be doing this three more
times.
Yeah, we could be doing what with the January six, Let's hope.
We could be dealing with the Georgia situation and we could do with Mar a Lago mass heating
up like you wouldn't believe.
They are now making Secret Service testify.
They make his own attorney.
Corcoran He has to testify his own client.
Well, Jack Smith is is somehow rocket fuel to get Trump in a way that I don't I can't
believe people aren't challenging this and saying even if I don't like Donald Trump.
What's going on here because of the crime we've talked about this the crime fraud exemption.
If if you get legal advice during the execution of a crime, but it'll never happen.
It's your it happens more than you would believe.
Talk to more of it about that.
Your attorney client privilege goes out the window regarding the Secret Service.
How many times has it happened?
It's not necessary.
Speaker 1: So two arguments.
First, they're ignoring the crime fraud exception.
Then Brian KILMEADE moves to, well, how often has it actually happened?
We're going to address all of these points in a moment.
Speaker 2: Secret Service, can you flip them?
I am just talking about what is the law?
That is the law rarely used.
That is.
Well, it was used in this case.
No, it is.
If the I feel like it's open to mic night, I'm getting heckled over here.
No heckling you.
I'm just saying, you know, ludicrous.
I'm just.
Attorney You're okay.
Speaker 1: So ainsley earhart is saying it's ludicrous.
Brian kilmeade is saying it's ridiculous.
And steve doocy is absolutely correct about lawyers testifying and the crime fraud exception.
It's not controversial and it actually has been used many times.
So the crime fraud exception is a legal principle which allows certain confidential communications,
like, for example, those between an attorney and their client to be disclosed in court.
If they were made to further the commission of a crime or a fraud.
So if you use your attorney client relationship to plan or carry out a crime or fraud, then
it's not protected by attorney client privilege.
It's actually a really simple legal principle.
So if you have a lawyer and you consult with your lawyer to commit a fraud, to cover up
a crime or whatever, those conversations, those communications could be subject to the
crime fraud exception.
They aren't protected by attorney client privilege.
That is what Trump and Michael Cohen were doing.
Then when Steve Doocy explains it to Brian KILMEADE Kill Me moves on to, well, it's never
used.
Well, hold on a second.
It's that's it.
Now that is a different argument.
How does Brian KILMEADE know that?
Does he cover trials enough to know whether or not it's actually used?
And the answer is, of course he doesn't.
And the truth is that the frequency of the crime fraud exceptions, it's difficult to
determine because it does depend on the circumstances.
And it's not like there is public journalism around every use of the crime fraud exception
most.
Court cases.
Aren't reported on in the way that we would be able to say, here is the frequency of the
use of the crime fraud exception.
But there are some pretty prominent examples of it being used.
The Enron scandal.
If you haven't read what's the name of the book, I think it's the smartest guys in the
room or something like that.
If you haven't read the book about the Enron scandal, I recommend it.
In the early 2000s, Enron was engaging in all sorts of accounting fraud, and it led
to its bankruptcy.
And during the investigation, that crime fraud exception was indeed used with regard to communications
between Enron executives and their lawyers because it helped to establish those fraudulent
activities.
So that's a very prominent case in which it was used.
The Bernie Madoff Ponzi scheme.
When Bernie Madoff was arrested for running that huge Ponzi scheme and defrauded investors
to the tune of billions.
The crime fraud exception was also used to obtain privileged communications between Madoff
and his lawyer, and it revealed Madoff lied to his investors and his lawyer about the
existence of the fraudulent scheme.
So it is the law and it is used, including in prominent cases.
Kill me is wrong.
Ainsley earhart is breathlessly out of control.
Steve doocy is the guy.
That's correct.
And on fox and friends, you aren't exactly rewarded for introducing sanity and fact