Wow.
- This is exciting. - It's exciting.
Michael, welcome to the show.
Thanks for having me.
Now, the series--
today is the 30th anniversary of the Waco siege.
- Mmm. - Yeah.
And I know this series--
you did a series that looked at the Waco siege,
and now this is revisiting it.
It's the aftermath.
What-- what is it about Waco that made you
want to return to the story?
Well yeah, I mean, a lot of people, when I told them
I was making a sequel to Waco, they
said, didn't you do it all?
I mean, that was the whole thing, right?
And you know, granted, that was the event,
yes, but obviously, an event like that is like a--
like a meteor crashing into the Earth, you know?
It's gonna have seismic consequences.
And I really think it's worth exploring these incidents.
They don't just exist in a vacuum, and they--
everything is connected and everything
leads to the next thing.
And that's what was so worthwhile to explore.
Yeah, I mean, you look at Waco,
and Waco is sort of, in many ways, if not the birth
of the modern militia movement, definitely
part of the trajectory for it, right?
Yeah.
And just sowing, you know, this--
this distrust in the government.
A lot of times when I think about anarchy,
I think, what is it that really frightens
people about anarchy?
What is the thing that you would
lose in a state of anarchy that is so significant?
And the answer to that I keep coming up with
is, well, the government keeps you safe.
Like, the government exists in order to keep the population
safe, taken care of.
And if the government isn't doing that,
it's really kind of worthless.
Like, there is no reason for it to exist.
And it does that in a variety of ways,
you know, whether it's--
the most obvious way is just keeping us safe from harm,
but also helping us to take care of ourselves
and be able to take care of ourselves
and live somewhere where we don't
have to worry about our own well-being all the time.
Like, that's, as far as I can tell, why it's there.
[applause]
I think in an ideal sense, yes.
Now, I spend a lot of time out in the road.
I talk to a lot of folks who have this inherent distrust
in the government, right, that don't
see it as something that serves a role
to support and to protect.
It's something you should be distrustful of.
I think Waco is an experience that was complicating
for a lot of folks.
It was the government didn't handle it perhaps the way they
could have or should have.
You even make the series at a time that was pre
what happened in January 6.
The series originally looks at this extremism.
And now since then, we've seen what
is extremism in a series like that now
make its way onto the front pages,
onto the steps of the Capitol.
January 6 has now happened.
How does that affect approaching
telling the story again?
Well geez, I mean, it just makes me wonder, like--
because things keep happening that you think there's no way
this could ever happen, and then it happens.
And so I'm like, what's the next--
what's the next thing after January 6?
And what's fascinating is that the fellow I'm playing,
Gary Noesner, who's an actual real person,
has an incredible book I highly recommend everybody
read called Stalling for Time.
But Waco is one chapter in his book.
Like I said, as cataclysmic an event as it was, it's only--
he's got all these incidents that he's
dealt with over the years on micro and macro levels.
And-- and he is very reluctant-- he's not a--
he's not looking to vilify anybody or say, oh, you know--
And he would agree that that situation in Waco
was an incredibly complicated situation and--
and he has doubts himself about how he handled it.
He certainly has doubts about how other people handled it.
But he doesn't think there's, like, a big, bad wolf
or anything like that.
But I think it just--
it's extraordinarily compelling,
I think, this story.
And I think it's extraordinarily valuable
to realize that, no matter how outlandish an event is,
that there is something even more outlandish
just around the corner.
And I think that that's--
I think that's why this story is worth keeping
in the forefront of our minds. I also think it's worth--
Are you telling that because you're a storyteller
and you're like, next--
like, you want-- you've gotten two
things out of this already.
You're like, and you think you've seen this so far--
the "After-Aftermath," are we pitching it now?
[laughs] Well, there are actually--
Gary and I-- 'cause Gary and I have actually
become very good friends.
JORDAN KLEPPER: You bought the IP.
I see what it is, all right.
Well, Gary--
I think it's important to point out too that I'm
absolutely nothing like Gary.
Like, I don't look like Gary.
I don't sound like Gary.
JORDAN KLEPPER: Were you, like, the
second, third, fourth choice?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
It was Danny DeVito, uh, Fisher Stevens, and then me.
Yeah.
They're always grabbing your good roles, man.
Yeah, yeah.
Well, I'm like a catchbasin, you know?
I get what nobody else wants.
But-- but he's like, yeah, we've got to make
all the chapters in the--
and there is a great potential for season three,
but I'm not gonna ruin it and tell you.
If you read the book, you'll figure it out.
But anyway, the only other point I wanted to make
is, and I've heard other people, friends of mine,
say this, particularly the Dowldes,
the Dowdle brothers who made this show, who are just--
John and Drew are just beautiful, beautiful people,
and they really, really care.
Like, it's not easy to make a show like this.
There's gonna be a lot of resistance.
It's like, really?
This is kind of a drag.
You want to just--
like, yeah, we need to do this.
JORDAN KLEPPER: Resistance because it's
inherently a political story?
Yeah, that's part of it.
It's also unpleasant.
It's-- JORDAN KLEPPER: Texas.
--pretty darn unpleasant.
[laughs] It's Texas.
But I think one of the things that's valuable also
about it is that it proves that, no matter what
side of this debate or issue that you're on,
everyone is capable of having a flawed perspective.
Everyone is.
And that's also an important thing to remember.
And a lot of people pay lip service to that.
It's like, well, it's not until we reach across the aisle
or whatever, find a common ground.
But I think it's really interesting in this situation,
in this story, to see how that really is not
easy to do for either side, and how complicated that truly can
be in practice, not just as, like,
a catchy slogan, but something that you actually do.
Yeah, well it's vulnerable to secede any kind of
ground, right?
So yeah, admitting that your point of view might be flawed
could put you in a position where you suddenly now lose
ground to this other side.
And I feel like we're constantly
fighting those battles today.
And particularly when there are actually
lives on the line.
Like, it's not just Thanksgiving
and you're not threatening to throw
sweet potatoes at your uncle.
It's like, there are people in a very
life-and-death situation and, decisions
have to get made very quickly.
Now, switching gears a little bit here, I'm from Chicago.
I know your reputation.
I saw you in Chicago perform.
Not only are you wonderful on the big screen,
but also live in theater.
And I know not only do you do live theater,
I know you also perform music.
You cover historic bands and their historic albums.
I know you also do improv.
Is there-- we had a, "What?
What?"
Yeah, it's sort of--
I'm assuming it's like a Whose Line
is it Anyway? type situation?
A lot of props and a lot of--
I'm kidding.
I wouldn't insult long-form that way.
I ride the pacifier.
It's just funny to see a grown man with a pacifier.
[laughs] Are you drawn to that types of thing?
I feel like you're known for more--
for your heavier, more dramatic performances.
Do you sort of have to indulge the other side?
Oh, gee, I don't know.
I feel like I don't do enough.
Like, there's things-- like, I should try other things
and keep diversifying my portfolio, as it were.
But-- but then I think, well, you hear a lot of times,
just stay in your lane, you know,
whether that's with your work or your opinions or whatever.
Just stay in your lane.
So I'm kind of conscious of that too.
Like, the music stuff-- people are always
like, what happened to your band
or what's going on with that?
And I was like, eh.
It just started to feel--
well, I just started to feel like--
'cause I mean, who wants to--
actor bands are, like--
I'm embarrassed by them, and I'm an actor,
so I don't want to participate in that.
Like, I remember when I-- and I fricken
love Kevin Bacon so much.
JORDAN KLEPPER: I was gonna say.
But I remember seeing--
JORDAN KLEPPER: I didn't want to name it.
--like, the bacon brothers on Jay Leno.
I was like-- - I know.
You hear, like-- like, I hear Joe
Scarborough talk about his band,
and you're like God bless.
Go-- go with God there, Joe, go with God.
Or certain people that I won't mention who
come into the makeup trailer in the morning
and they say, hey, have you heard my album?
And then they put it on while everybody
is getting their hair done and make
you listen to their record.
You haven't done that.
But I said I wasn't gonna mention the name.
[laughs]
I didn't want to incriminate myself.
Tell me this, Michael Shannon.
Tell me there has been a moment where you have walked up,
very seriously, and asked somebody
to come to your improv show.
I never. No.
- No? - No.
No.
Well, I'm usually riding someone
else's coattails, though.
As you know, I'm performing oftentimes
with two of the legendary improvisers of all-time, Dave
Pasquesi and TJ Jagodowski,
JORDAN KLEPPER: Yup.
Yes.
The greatest of all time.
Yes.
So I mean, he can basically just
stand on stage next to him and drool on your shoes,
and it'll be like, bravo, 'cause
nobody's watching you anyway.
I think, though, you're not truly
an improviser until you've begged somebody
to come to one of your shows.
Yeah, yeah, that's true.
Well, and you-- 'cause you did the IO, right?
JORDAN KLEPPER: I did. yeah, yeah.
In Chicago.
They would have like 500 shows a day.
JORDAN KLEPPER: Yeah.
It was like one after the other after the other.
Did you ever come and see any of my shows?
- No. - No?
Not a one.
Not interested in--
I was at Second City, which was literally two blocks
from your theater.
I'm sure you came to see some of that too.
Well, it a little corporate, isn't it?
It's got a little-- uh-oh.
Am I in trouble now?
It's not corporate, it's just owned by a venture capitalist
now. So if that's--
That's a important delineation.
--corporate, then yeah, maybe it's corporate.
Well, I'm glad you could come on here
and help me burn down any bridges I have in Chicago.
[laughs] Oh, God.
[applause]
Michael--
I'm everyone's favorite arsonist.
You really come in-- on the anniversary of a siege,
you came here and you took it to the ground.
- Yes, I did. - I appreciate that.
Michael Shannon, everyone.
[cheers and applause]
New episodes of Waco--
The Aftermath stream Fridays and airs Sundays on Showtime.