Now you may be aware that when we went to the last federal election the
coalition said that if they were re-elected they will move the twenty
thousand-plus welfare recipients in the Northern Territory those who are
currently on the income management and the basicscard will be moved to the
cashless debit card. Now of course the coalition won the election and they are
looking to pass the legislation which would change those people on the
Basicscard to recipients of the cashless debit card. Now the new card would allow
we understand, a quarantining of up to a 100 percent of people's welfare. At
the moment it tends to be 50/50. It stops people from buying grog or
pornography at the moment and the new card we're told will allow people to be able
to buy at more places it'll be much more flexible in the areas which can use it.
There have been some suggestions by the government that there are positive
results from the trial sites. This has been trialed down Ceduna, it's in the east
Kimberley and also in parts of Queensland.
We also heard when the first review of done of the card must have been 2017
that the Australian National Audit Office found absolutely no evidence no
proof that was having any positive benefits because they couldn't be
measured. They've done another study I'm not sure what the results of that. Well
let's find out more because the senate's Community Affairs legislation committee
is sitting in Alice Springs today. They're doing hearings into the cashless
debit card. One person on the committee is Labor's NT Senator Malarndirri
McCarthy. She'll be here this afternoon for the hearing and a good morning to
you Malarndirri McCarthy oh I think I might have lost Malarndirri McCarthy
we'll see if we can find her. Yes good morning Malarndirri McCarthy
Good morning Stuart. Good morning to you and your listeners.
Just looking at the committee now it's a
Senate committee obviously looking into the cashless debit card or who will you
be speaking to here in Alice Springs?
Sure, we've got the Central Land Council
and also the Tangyentere council appearing along with the NPY Women's
Council, First Nations Foundation, the Jesuit Social Services and the Northern Territory Government.
Now as we take evidence, I know you've already taken
evidence in Adekaide, what are you hearing?
Look we're hearing consistently the
concerns around what this means. I think there's two fundamental ones in
particular for the Northern Territory.We have had a hearing in Darwin and that is
the rolling over of 21 to 23,000 people who are on the basicscard to the CDC and the
issue of quarantining Stewart that the minister has the power to quarantine up
to 100 percent of a person's income and I find that really concerning and the
evidence that's coming through from human rights groups also finds that very concerning
Do we have any evidence--and this is an interesting one we've been
discussing this all the way through this process. The government started off being
unable to tell us this is before they went to the election be actually I
couldn't get a straight answer out of the social services Minister what
percentage they would quarantine under the the new card if it indeed was rolled
out in the Northern Territory, do we have we got any greater clarity and what will
happen to people who are currently on the basicscard if they go ahead with
this as planned?
We understand that the people who are currently on the
basicscard -- the government is looking at the 50%
quarantine which is currently the rate of the Basicscard but that's only at the
moment. What they're not confirming is the fact that they can raise that rate
at any time under the minister's discretion which is what will be in this Bill.
Will that be down to Centerlink to make those decisions who actually would
make that decision about the percentage of a quarantining?
Yeah good question. It's something I've actually been asking consistently of the
minister just in last week's Senate estimates as well that the response from
the Department and the minister is that it would be a community decision and I
said well how do you define community is it a mayor of a council is it an
organisation? Who actually determines if a person's income should go from 50
percent to 100 percent quarantine? So there is a real grey area around that
and human rights groups have raised that concern as well but there was a
another curious thing as well Stewart which you and your listeners would appreciate
with the basicscard we know that people couldn't and can't purchase you know
alcohol and pornography but with the cashless debit
card, they can purchase pornography
Okay so that's one change there?
Yes and I did
ask the Department, I said well what was the policy decision in that change and
they couldn't answer the question and they neither could the Minister
Is that because maybe they don't have the capacity with this car because it's really just
like a bank card isn't it?
Well I don't think they've actually given it
any thought because I've said to them that for the people of the Northern
Territory we've had consistent quarantining in for such a long time as a
result of the intervention and now you're asking people to move onto
another card and you haven't given any real evidence as to whether the current
basics card has worked.
Just wondering because one of the things which was
rolled out in the last month or so was a suggestion that there were good I think
was in the Harvey Bay Wide Bay area of Queensland suggesting there been some
favorable outcomes in terms of youth unemployment has that been presented to
the committee?
Not as actual evidence we did have a one participant from
Bundaberg and who's not actually on the card but is involved with with it in
terms of the advisory group. She gave evidence of anecdotal evidence but there
is no actual statistical or data evidence to say that it's working
at this stage
We're still waiting I understand for the Department of social services to
conduct a second analysis and review of the cashless debit card. Have they
presented that has that actually been released as yet the first one of course
as we know it was found by the Australian National Audit Office as
having no bate there was actually no evidence because they couldn't prove any
evidence of benefit. Has this second review come out yet?
It's still lacking in that kind of evidence as well Stewart, and that's what's clearly coming through
in all of the witnesses, in particular the academics who face the committee, they are
repeating the fact that there is no evidence showing that this actually works
Now Labor supported the trials but is now saying you would prefer it to
be an opt-in system now that remain the policy of Labor that even though you
did support the the earlier trials you're now not supporting the roll
any further and you do want it to be an opt-in?
Absolutely we are very concerned
that because of the lack of evidence that should have been there as a result
of those trials we have real concerns about it now being imposed across the
board onto people and the real concern of course here in the Northern Territory
is the fact that there are people on the basicscard already.
Now in an opt in system
would that require for instance you'd have to be able to prove that you can
manage your money how would that work it sounds like it could be very complex?
I think it's more about choice Stewart so that people feel that if they need
assistance and this will assist them it's really down to their ability to
choose whereas at the moment they have no choice.
Sitting in Alice Springs
now Jacqui Lambie you understand is an important vote in this debate has she
come to any of these sittings
Certainly not any of the inquiries I've
been on but I have to say I have personally invited senator Lambie to the
Northern Territory and I'm hoping that she will be able to do that in the new year
Has she made it clear what if thoughts are because it was being reported that she
was for it but when we spoke to her office earlier she said she hadn't made
a decision, what's your understanding of her point of view on this?
My understanding is the same. That that final decision hasn't been made by
senator Lambie simply because she is getting the difference different
evidence where she's going so I am keen to get it to the Northern Territory.
Yesterday we heard from the Minister for Indigenous Australians Ken Wyatt who was
appointing Marcia Langton and Tom Calma to head up a working group to look at
creating a voice to government. Sounds like what labor will support the process
but it's not happy with the process. Would that be fair to say?
That is fair to say. We obviously have maintained our position on enshrining the voice to
Parliament but naturally we want to continue the conversation and make sure
that it doesn't fall off the rails.
Does this point to the weakness of
Ken Wyatt's position in government to be able to influence his own party to say
follow what was outlined in the Uluru Statement?
Look it certainly reflects
the complexity that Minister Wyatt has to face within his own
side and we're very aware of that and I think that the fact that he's now
got Professor Langton and Tom Calma board--they're also aware of that as
well and what we want to do is make sure that this continues in terms of trying
to influence and encourage people to see the benefit of hopefully achieving a
constitutionally enshrined Voice.
And even in replying in responding to her
appointment Marcia Langton made it clear that she supported the original proposal
Do you think they'll be pushing it uphill given their own personal feelings
but also the fact they're working in a framework set by this government?
It was
always going to be tough Stewart. I think what we have to look at here is that we
need to keep this alive, we need to keep the hopes and dreams and beliefs of
people who came together at Uluru much front and centre. It may not be the
direction at the moment that people want but certainly Labor will be encouraging
all politicians who are involved with this process to see that the importance of
having a voice enshrined in the Constitution.
You still think it's worthwhile
to go through the process and to be part of the process?
Look we're not wreckers. We're not going to wreck this. We see that it's got to be
bigger and better than that. We've got to be above that. We're not happy that they
haven't accepted the enshrinement but we do acknowledge and respect the fact that
consultations are going to occur with two esteemed leaders in Professor
Langton and Tom Calma and we will do our best to keep encouraging people to
look at enshrinement