JUDY WOODRUFF: Now to a problem that knows no party and has caused pain in every modern
American presidency.
We are talking about unauthorized leaks to the press.
The Obama administration brought more leak-related charges than all other presidencies combined.
As we heard, today, Attorney General Jeff Sessions vowed to triple the number of investigations.
It follows the rare disclosure this week of the full transcripts of President Trump's
early calls with world leaders.
Hari Sreenivasan has a look at the debate over freedom of information and national security
concerns.
HARI SREENIVASAN: For that, we are joined by James Risen, investigative reporter for
The New York Times and author of the book "Pay Any Price: Greed, Power and Endless War."
He fought a protracted legal battle that spanned two administrations over whether he could
be forced to identify his confidential sources.
And Jeffrey Smith, he served as general counsel of the CIA in the Clinton administration.
He is currently a lawyer in private practice.
James, let me start with you.
Your reaction to what Jeff Sessions at the Department of Justice said this morning?
JAMES RISEN, The New York Times: I think it was -- they didn't have much in the way of
specifics.
There were no specific cases that they announced that they were bringing against either reporters
or whistle-blowers.
And I think that their press conference was mainly in reaction to Donald Trump's continued
pressure on Sessions and on Dan Coats, the -- and the intelligence community to get tough
on leaks.
But they lacked any real policy depth to what they were saying.
They just talked about how they were going to get tough.
And so it sounded a lot like what previous administrations, both the Bush and the Obama
administrations, have said.
And it really is -- we're going to have to wait and see whether they really have specific
cases that they plan to bring or not.
They talked about how they have tripled the number of investigations, but that really
leaves a lot to -- a lot of questions, because the intelligence community, for years, has
made many, many referrals to the Justice Department that never get prosecuted.
And so the fact that they have more referrals doesn't really mean that we're going to see
more criminal cases.
HARI SREENIVASAN: Jeffrey Smith, is this any different than what every administration tries
to do when they come in?
JEFFREY SMITH, Former CIA General Counsel: No, I don't think so.
Leaks are a real problem.
They can cause real harm, but I think one has to distinguish between leaks of information
that is genuinely classified and truly does cause harm and leaks of information that people
regard as sensitive, but is more political in nature.
So it's important to concentrate on those leaks that really do cause harm to national
security, and not just on those that are inconvenient for leadership.
HARI SREENIVASAN: James Risen, given that sort of definition that Jeffrey Smith gave
us of what constitutes a leak and what doesn't, should The Washington Post have published
the transcripts of the president's conversations with the Mexican president and the Australian
leader?
JAMES RISEN: Well, in my opinion, yes.
I think it's in the real public interest, because it showed -- for one thing, it showed
what Donald Trump really thinks of his wall idea and how political of an issue it was
for him.
I think Jeff is absolutely right that there is a distinction between national security
reporting and political reporting.
And I think Donald Trump is going to be very disappointed, because the kind of leaks that
he rages about are just what Jeff just described as political in nature.
And they don't really fall under the kind of cases that can be prosecuted in any meaningful
way.
HARI SREENIVASAN: James, staying with you for a second, given that there was a substantive
difference that we all learned about in terms of President Trump's policy from that transcript,
given that, should there be an expectation a president has that he can have a conversation
with another world leader and it be private?
Doesn't it change the equation?
Every president that's going to call or every leader that's going to have a conversation
with President Trump might speak differently to him knowing now that those conversations
might be published in The Washington Post the next day.
JAMES RISEN: Well, you know, that wasn't even the first phone call that was published.
The Intercept published one between Trump and Duterte, the leader of the Philippines,
a few weeks ago.
I think if you -- you have to understand the context in which leaks happen.
Leaks happen when people are unhappy with the government.
HARI SREENIVASAN: Jeffrey Smith, according to even to your own definition, would the
publishing of those transcripts by The Washington Post, would that constitute a leak?
Should it be prosecuted?
JEFFREY SMITH: Yes, I think it could.
Undoubtedly, those transcripts were classified.
I don't know what level.
But I spent many years in the Department of State.
And conversations between heads of state or secretaries of state and foreign ministers
are extraordinarily sensitive.
And the leak of that will undoubtedly chill any future conversations between the president
and others, because they will wonder whether or not what they said to him can remain confidential.
So, yes, it will cause harm.
JAMES RISEN: A lot of these cases, you have got to remember there's sides to conversations.
Some of these may be coming out from foreign governments who don't like Trump.
I think you have to remember the reason there's been this cascade of leaks about Donald Trump
is because he's gone out of his way to insult and ridicule virtually everyone that he deals
with.
JEFFREY SMITH: Jim, I'm not disagreeing at all with you on why they occur.
I'm just saying that, in the particular case of heads of state conversations, damage to
U.S. relations with that country and other countries will occur.
JAMES RISEN: I'm saying that those leaks may have happened from the other government wanting
to get it out.
JEFFREY SMITH: That is certainly possible.
HARI SREENIVASAN: Jeffrey Smith, I just want to ask you, also, how do we balance out the
needs for national security with the needs of an informed public?
You know, the Reporters Committee for Freedom of the Press said today: "What the attorney
general is suggesting is a dangerous threat to the American people to know and understand
what their leaders are doing and why."
JEFFREY SMITH: It is always a delicate balance.
And there is no perfect answer here.
One thing I do want to comment on is the previous administration had come up with guidelines
for the subpoenaing of reporters.
And I think those guidelines strike the right balance, and I hope that the new administration
will not change them.
That said, it is important that we do protect things that truly are harmful.
And my impression is, over the years, that most news organizations check with the executive
branch before they publish.
And the executive branch has the obligation to try to tell them why harm would occur,
but leave it in the journalistic judgment of the news media to decide what to do.
Unfortunately, in my view, they publish more than they should, but striking this balance
is difficult.
HARI SREENIVASAN: All right, Jeffrey Smith, James Risen, thank you both.
JAMES RISEN: Thanks.