amna: Most Americans feel the
nation is more divided today
than any -- than in the past,
according to a recent you-gov
poll.
To find out why, Judy woodruff
sat down with a group of
Republican and democratic voters
in northeast Ohio who are trying
to bridge the partisan divide.
It's her latest installment in
the series, America at a
crossroads.
Judy: On a beautiful spring
Sunday, when many clevelanders
were cheering on runners at the
city's annual marathon, we were
inside the city's historic
public library next door,
talking to a half dozen local
residents about America's
divisions.
The group was brought together
with the help of braver angels,
one of hundreds of grassroots
organizations that have sprung
up in recent years to try to
bridge the partisan divide.
Thank you, each one of you, for
joining us for this
conversation.
We appreciate it.
Joining me were Republican Nancy
Miranda, who co-chairs the
state's chapter of braver
angels.
>> What is going on in this
country was so disconcerting to
me.
I was actually waking up at
night thinking, oh my gosh, what
are we leaving our kids?
Judy: Democrat Dr. Bill shaul, a
retired family doctor and braver
angels ambassador.
>> I think we need to start to
bridge personal bridges with
each other by listening better,
being more curious about what
the stories are that are behind
our positions.
Judy: Republican Khalid namar,
who works for Americans for
prosperity, a libertarian
conservative group, and who
hosts a radio talk show.
>> We have always had problems
but the approach to those
problems, there's fundamental
differences in how people see
the solutions to those problems.
Judy: Democrat Leah Nichols,
mother of a four-year-old and
frequent volunteer in local and
state politics.
>> There is so much division in
between the Democrats and the
Republicans.
And I think that it's really
important to try to find a way
forward together.
Judy: Republican mark
nieberding, who works in I.T.
>> If you tell me who you voted
for, I can very easily identify
you and I can discount you as a
person right away, which is
antithetical to what this
country should be.
Judy: And Democrat John Shi.
He moved here from California
eight years ago for college and
stayed.
>> Polarization is a systemic
problem at this point.
It is not caused by one
individual and not changed by
one individual.
I think it requires a collective
to fix that.
Judy: As part of my reporting
project, trying to understand
how the country seems to be so
divided right now, I wanted to
talk to a mix of voters here in
Ohio to understand how you see
this divide and if you think
there are ways to bridge it.
And we have reason to think this
is something you think is
possible.
So, Nancy, you turned to braver
angels because you just sensed
things were getting more and
more divided.
How did you see that in your own
life?
>> I think the media has such a
big part in dividing us, whether
it is racially or politically or
gender or sex.
>> The media tends to foster the
extremes by fueling a lot of the
rhetoric that is at the extremes
of both red and blue.
And the rhetoric and the
disrespect and the lack of
civility that we sometimes see
portrayed in the media, I think
has made this a lot worse.
>> I do see the media as
somewhat of an arsonist in many
respects.
However, unfortunately, they're
a mirror also as to some of the
climate that's out there.
>> We have a 24 hour news cycle.
And the news I see is probably
different than the news Nancy
sees, which is probably
different than the news that you
see, because we're all have our
own tailored algorithms when it
comes down to social media.
I think the news is just so
different than it used to be.
It is hard for us to even be on
the same page sometimes.
Judy: Mark, thoughts?
>> Are we really divided?
I mean, I'm just not sure how
much is being fed to us through
the media.
It's furthering confirmation
bias, I think is the problem.
Judy: Picking up on that, Nancy,
I mean, it's also the case that
when you look at the congress of
the United States or at state
legislatures, they're pretty
divided right now.
Are they reflecting the public?
Are they influencing the public?
How do you see that?
>> They seem to be speaking to
the fringes.
I don't know if they're really
listening to any of us sitting
here.
I don't know if anybody, any
politician right now even looks
at an issue objectively and
says, hey, this is good for the
American public.
No, it's red, I'm against it, or
it is blue, I'm against it.
It is very infuriating.
>> That points to a bigger
problem, I think, that exists in
American politics today.
And that is, you know, our
leaders not representing the
constituency, at least in the
majority sense.
It feels like whether it's
polarized voices, you know,
shouting the loudest, or special
interests with funded campaigns
to get their messages and
opinions heard.
Judy: So, mark, you just heard
what John and Nancy were saying
about our political leaders.
How do you see that dynamic?
Are they playing a role in this
division?
>> I think it's probably a lack
of humility is probably at the
core.
Judy: You mean on the part of
our leaders?
>> Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, we're here doing it.
I've heard it said that the
leaders we get are a reflection
of the people.
So maybe here we are starting to
turn the tide and start to get
some of the leaders whowill
think and respond to the people
as we are responding to each
other.
Judy: So, my question for each
one of you is, how do you see
the people you disagree with
politically?
>> I think it's really easy to
look at the other side and be
able to say, oh, you know, maybe
they just don't have the
knowledge that I have or they
don't know the things that I
know.
But in reality, we all have our
own lived experiences that have
brought us to where we are.
And if we could listen to each
other, maybe we'd actually be
able to understand a little
better.
>> I'm going to probably sound a
little different here.
I'll say it's a mix of things.
Some of them are bad.
Some of them are decent people
in the middle.
Some of them are just misguided.
We're being forced to try to
accept a one size fits all for
the entire country.
And I think that's the problem.
Judy: You just heard Khalid say
that some of them are good
people, but some of them aren't.
How do you see that?
>> If we understood how people
shape their opinion, if we
understood what their deeper
values were that led to those
positions, I think that requires
a certain degree of curiosity, a
certain degree of humility.
And I think it will offset or
mitigate some of the extremes
that lead us to say those are
bad people, or, I could never
agree with anything that person
says.
Judy: Khalid, do you think that
could work?
Do you think if you understood
where they were coming from, you
could get along with them?
>> I know where they are coming
from.
I think a lot of people have a
view of this country that's
based on everything that's
negative and nothing more.
It's ill founded, it's immoral,
it'racist, sexist, it'
bigoted, that this country needs
to be completely revamped and
upended.
Some of us don't.
Some of us know what needs to be
fixed.
But how do we fix it, and do we
just totally dismantle all of
our foundations?
So I think there are some real
issues here.
How we approach those issues and
fixing the country is the
fundamental problem.
>> As somebody who does see some
of these systems as wanting to
be dismantled, not entirely all
of them, but some of them to an
extent, I do feel like I see
America as something that can be
greater than it is right now.
Something that we can work
forward to to make it better
together rather than just hating
America.
Judy: One thing I wanted to ask
you all for sure is whether this
division has affected you in
your personal lives and your
families.
How have you seen that?
Jon, what about you?
>> Yeah, it definitely has
affected my personal life.
When the covid vaccine started
rolling out in early 2021, I was
speaking to my father, who is
quite conservative and quite
liberal.
So, very different political
views, and he is in a high risk
group.
So I thought he should take the
vaccine and adamantly refuse
that, and to this day has not
taken the vaccine.
And so, having the conversation
with him about the covid-19
vaccine was difficult.
But around the same time I heard
about braver angels and attended
one of the workshops where they
taught me some lessons on how to
understand the other side and
have a civil, respectful
conversation.
And that has led me to talk with
him more about the vaccine and
other things and has
significantly improved our
relationship.
>> I almost lost a friend over
it.
We would get into discussions,
and not very civil discussions,
I'll put it that way.
And then we just decided, you
know, is our friendship worth
it?
And we just put certain things
off limits.
We didn't talk about them at
all.
It wasn't risking losing a
friend over politics.
So we stopped talking about it.
Judy: What about the rest of
you?
>> I'm able to field someone
else's opinion without
necessarily being feeling
personally attacked.
I think people have gotten to
the point where they think that
their opinions is who they are.
They're not.
It's a piece.
It's not who you are.
>> Unfortunately, I feel like
it's affected so much of my
relationships in my life.
My family leans more to the
right.
Even growing up, I am bisexual,
and I would not express that
until after I moved out away
from my family, where I felt it
was more safe to do so.
I feel like I have a decent
relationship with my family.
Luckily we are all very question
oriented.
We ask questions.
Why do you think that?
Why do you feel that way?
What made you come to that
decision?
There are times where we change
our minds, which is, I think,
what this country needs to have
more of.
Judy: Let's use that as a way to
ask, to raise this question.
What do you think it's going to
take to make things better?
To bring us to a place where we
are able to talk about our
differences.
>> Start individually.
Go talk to somebody who thinks
differently than you.
If you're focused on fox all the
time and you can't break away,
or MSNBC, turn out the other
station once in a while.
Research what you're listening
in the media.
Find out what it's about.
Don't take what anybody says
verbatim.
>> I do think it's really
important that kind of as they
were saying, we put community in
front of politics and that we
put our community first.
I also in my small town have
helped start a community garden.
I think I have had the most
amazing political discourse
gardening with people from all
different sides.
And we don't come in and say,
I'm Republican or I'm Democrat.
We just come in as people who
want a garden and better our
community.
Judy: Are you hopeful that we
can get to a better place?
>> I really think the answer to
our polarization politically in
this country is in our
communities, and it is in the
relationships that we have with
one another, especially across
lines of difference.
I think with enough time we can
start to reverse this trend of
polarization we have seen over
the last decade or two and work
towards a better democracy.
Judy: Are you hopeful?
>> I would like to be, but there
are things that are disturbing
to me.
The underpinnings of our culture
and society, they're unraveling.
So I would like to be hopeful,
but I want those things
addressed as opposed to us
having a civil debate, which is
fine, but how do we live?
>> I am hopeful.
I wouldn't be doing what I'm
doing if I wasn't hopeful.
Sometimes it feels like a
horribly uphill battle, but it's
better than not doing it.
>> I feel more encouraged and
hopeful by virtue of being
involved in something like
braver angels.
For some reason, the energy that
goes into that translates for me
into a hopeful feeling about the
future.
Judy: This has been such a
wonderful conversation.
Thank you, each one of you, for
sitting down and talking with us
today.
Thank you very much.
>> Thank you.
>> Thank you for having us.
♪♪