﻿Mr SPEAKER: Question No 4, Hon Annette King.
Hon ANNETTE KING (Deputy Leader—Labour)
to the Minister of Health: What advice, if any,
did he give to Cabinet on the risks of the Social Bonds Pilot
announced on 1 June 2015?
Hon Dr JONATHAN COLEMAN (Minister of Health):
Papers on social bonds were presented—
Mr SPEAKER: Order! I don’t think the microphone
has been switched on. Let the Minister start again now.
Hon Dr JONATHAN COLEMAN: OK. Papers on social bonds
were presented to Cabinet—
Mr SPEAKER: Order! If the member could move closer
to the microphone and talk into it that would help.
Hon Dr JONATHAN COLEMAN: No, I do not think it is a problem
with my voice; I think it is the microphone.
Mr SPEAKER: If the member speaks clearly and close
to the microphone, we will hear the answer.
Hon Dr JONATHAN COLEMAN: OK. Papers on social bonds
were presented to Cabinet by the then Minister of Health—
Mr SPEAKER: No. Order! I cannot hear it.
Can the member swap with another microphone? OK.
Hon Dr JONATHAN COLEMAN: Papers on social bonds
were presented to Cabinet by the then Minister of Health
in February and August of 2013. In each paper the Cabinet
was provided a list of risks and a process for managing
these risks was set out. These papers are available
on the Ministry of Health website.
Hon Annette King: Was Cabinet advised that a negative impact
of social impact bonds could be a poor-quality service?
Hon Dr JONATHAN COLEMAN: I do not recall that
specific advice being given.
Hon Annette King: Was Cabinet advised that services provided
through social impact bonds could be ineffective
and providers could cherry-pick their clients
to avoid hard-to-reach users?
Hon Dr JONATHAN COLEMAN: The issue about social bonds
is actually that we are contracting for results
and what papers have also described as mitigating
strategies around any existing risks.
So what we are clear about here is we lay out what we want
out of these bonds, we contract very tightly for them,
and there is no payment paid until the contracted results are delivered.
Hon Annette King: Was Cabinet told that the pilot services
for social impact bonds would need to be non-essential
health services; if so, does he consider services provided
to mental health sufferers and those with chronic illness non-essential?
Hon Dr JONATHAN COLEMAN: Of course those areas are absolutely important.
It is very important that people with mental health issues
are guided back into employment and assisted in doing that.
What we are clear about is we want a result
for this vulnerable population and we are prepared to contract
for that and pay for that result to be delivered,
unlike other Governments that have preceded us.
Hon Annette King: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker.
My question asked—
Mr SPEAKER: Order! The member will immediately resume her seat.
The question was in two parts, and in my opinion the Minister
addressed the second part— certainly did not address
the first part, but addressed the second part—
and that meets the Standing Orders.
Hon Annette King: Are those lining up to be investors
in social impact bonds philanthropic organisations,
well-meaning philanthropists, or foreign-owned banks
keen to make an even bigger profit?
Hon Dr JONATHAN COLEMAN: We are actually focusing
on the result. The interventions are well proven. We are not actually
too worried, as long as the organisations are ethical,
about who provides the financing. But you have got to focus on
delivering a result for a vulnerable population,
and that is what this is all about.
Mr SPEAKER: Question No 5, the Rt Hon Winston Peters.
[Interruption]
Mr SPEAKER: Order! I apologise to the member.
We have a point of order from the Hon Annette King.
Hon Annette King: I seek leave to table a Cabinet paper
to the office of the Minister of Health—to the Cabinet
social policy committee, Social bonds: Proposal
for a NZ pilot, setting out the risks, as I set out—
Mr SPEAKER: Order! That last part is not necessary.
The paper has been described.
It is a paper going to a Cabinet committee, from memory.
Leave is sought to table it. Is there any objection?
There is none. It can be tabled.
Question No 5.
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