>>> JOINING US NOW, WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT FOR PBS NEWS HOUR.
POLITICS EDITOR FOR THE DAILY
BEAST, SAM STEIN.
STAFF WRITER FOR THE TRACE, A
NON-PROFIT NEWS ORGANIZATION
THAT FOCUSES ON GUN VIOLENCE IN
THE UNITED STATES, MIKE, OUT
WITH A NEW REPORT, CO-PUBLISHED
BY THE "NEW YORKER," ON THE
INTERNAL FINANCIAL DEALINGS AT
THE NRA.
THE NRA. WHAT A REPORT IT IS.
THANKS FOR BEING WITH US.
>> MIKE, SHOCKING.
JUST SHOCKING, THE
MISMANAGEMENT.
MISMANAGEMENT. GREAT WE HAVE YOU HERE ON THE
SAME DAY AS TRUMP TAX RETURNS.
YOU CAN CALL IT FAKE NEWS, IT IS
ALL NUMBERS.
ALL NUMBERS. >> RIGHT.
>> RIGHT. >> IT IS ALL MATH.
>> ON PAPER.
>> IT IS ALL ON PAPER.
>> RIGHT.
>> RIGHT. >> IT IS ALL ONIN BLACK AND WHIT
IT’S THE SAME THING WITH YOUR --
YOU KNOW, BECAUSE I HEARD YOU
WORKED FOR A GROUP THATVIOLENCE.
I SAID, HOW SLANTED IS THIS
GOING TO BE?
HALFWAY THROUGH, I SAID, OH, MY
GOD, THIS IS ALL IN BLACK AND
WHITE.
WHITE. THE FINANCIAL MISMANAGEMENT
INSIDE THE NRA IS STAGGERING.
THE SELF-DEALING.
THE SELF-DEALING. >> RIGHT.
>> RIGHT. >> IT IS JUST REALLY SLEAZY.
>> RIGHT.
>> RIGHT. >> EXPLAIN IT.
>> TELL US ABOUT IT.
>> IT IS A CULTURAL THAT’S
MARKED BY SELF-DEALING, GREED,
SECRECY, BLOATED PAYMENTS,
LAVISH PAY PACKAGES TO VENDORS,
SOMETHING THAT’S BEEN GOING ON
FOR, I DON’T KNOW, A COUPLE
DECADES, BASICALLY SINCE WAYNE
LA PIERRE ROSE TO POWER IN THE
NRA IN THE EARLY ’90s.
>> WHO BENEFITS OFF THESE DEALS?
WHO IS MAKING MILLIONS OFF THESE
INTERNAL SELF-DEALING EPISODES?
>> NRA’S SENIOR MANAGEMENT AND
THE VENDORS AND CONTRACTORS WHO
ARE VERY CLOSE TO THEM.
ALSO, PEOPLE WHO -- WHAT TENDS
TO HAPPEN IS FOLKS WHO WORKED
FOR THE NRA FOR A LONG TIME AT A
HIGH LEVEL, WHEN THEY STOP
WORKING FOR THE NRA, THEY
CONTINUE ON, DESPITE BEING
RETIRED, WITH LUCRATIVE
CONTRACTS THAT ARE WORTH
HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF
DOLLARS.
DOLLARS. >> GIVE US SPECIFICS ON THE
SELF-DEALING.
SELF-DEALING. >> IT IS HARD TO -- I GUESS WE
CAN PICK -- ONE PLACE TO START
WITHOUT WITH McQUEEN, THE NRA’S
LONG-TIME PUBLIC RELATIONS FIRM.
BASICALLY CREATED WAYNE LA
PIERRE.
PIERRE. ALL THE MESSAGING YOU’RE
FAMILIAR WITH COMES FROM ACKER
ACKERMAN McQUEEN.
ACKERMAN McQUEEN. THEY HAVE A REVOLVING DOOR.
25% OF EMPLOYEES ARE MANAGED BY
FORMER ACKERMAN FOLKS.
FORMER ACKERMAN FOLKS WORK FOR
THE NRA.
THE NRA. NRA PEOPLE WORK FOR ACKERMAN.
PEOPLE WHO HOLD EXECUTIVE
POSITIONS AT THE NRA ALSO HAVE
STAKES IN ACKERMAN AFFILIATED
COMPANIES.
COMPANIES. >> HOW MUCH MONEY WAS ACKERMAN
MAKE?
MAKE? >> 2017, THE MOST FULL
ACCOUNTING WE KNOW OF, THAT CAME
TO MORE THAN $40 MILLION.
>> THEY MAKE MORE THAN $40
MILLION.
MILLION. THEY ALSO PUSHED NRA TV.
>> THEY KREE ITCREATE IT, PRODUC
THEY PAY PEOPLE YOU’RE FAMILIAR
WITH, NORTH, THE NRA’S PRESIDENT
WAS GETTING PAID SOME MILLION
DOLLARS A YEAR THROUGH ACKERMAN.
>> I WAS WONDERING, BECAUSE I
KNOW A LOT OF NRA MEMBERS.
I GREW UP WITH NRA MEMBERS.
IN FACT, I GREW UP IN
MISSISSIPPI AND ALABAMA, GEORGIA
AND NORTHWEST FLORIDA.
I WAS SURROUNDED.
IN THE PEWS OF FIRST BAPTIST
CHURCHES, THEY WERE ALL NRA
MEMBERS.
MEMBERS. >> RIGHT.
>> RIGHT. >> THEN I SEE PEOPLE COMING ON
AND THREATENING JOURNALISTS.
>> RIGHT.
>> RIGHT. >> ONE ACTUALLY SAID TO US, YOUR
TIME IS RUNNING OUT.
THEY TURNED OVER AN HOURGLASS.
I SAT THERE THINKING --
>> WHY?
>> WHY? >> I UNDERSTAND WHY LOBBYISTS IN
D.C. WOULD DO THAT, BUT WHAT
ABOUT ALL THE PEOPLE SITTING IN
THE PEWS?
THE PEWS? DO THEY WANT DEATH THREATS
AGAINST JOURNALISTS?
AGAINST JOURNALISTS? WHAT YOUR REPORT SHOWED WAS
ACTUALLY, THIS APPROACH OFFENDED
A LOT OF NRA MEMBERS.
THEY’RE LIKE, TALK ABOUT GUNS.
DON’T THREATEN PEOPLE’S LIVES.
>> THERE IS A -- PEOPLE LOOK AT
NRA MEMBERSHIP AS A MONOLITH,
AND IT IS NOT.
THERE ARE MEMBERS CONCERNED WITH
GUN EDUCATION, SAFETY, TRAINING,
HUNTING.
HUNTING. THOSE ARE THE PEOPLE, EM
EMPIRICALLY, ON PAPER, BEING
NEGLECTED.
NEGLECTED. >> LET’S SAY IT, GUN RIGHTS.
>> RIGHT.
>> RIGHT. >> THEY DON’T WANT WHAT THE NRA
TV HAS BEEN DELIVERING, FOR THE
MOST PART, AND MAKING, WHAT, $40
MILLION A YEAR DOING IT.
>> RIGHT.
>> RIGHT. >> A LOT OF PEOPLE GETTING RICH
OFF OF SOMETHING THAT’S ACTUALLY
DRIVING AWAY MEMBERS.
>> THAT’S RIGHT.
I DON’T THINK THEIR PRIMARY
CONCERN IS BEING AT THE VANGUARD
OF THE CULTURE WARS.
I THINK THEY CARE ABOUT GUN
RIGHTS, IN AS MUCH AS THEY WANT
FIREARMS TO HUNT, GO TO THE
RANGE SOMETIMES, BUT THAT’S NOT
REALLY WHAT THEY -- THAT’S NOT
WHAT GUN CULTURE IS ABOUT FOR
THEM.
THEM. THEY’RE NOT INTERESTED,
NECESSARILY, IN CARRYING THEIR
HANDGUN IN PUBLIC, BEING ABLE TO
BRING THEIR HANDGUN TO A
GOVERNMENT BUILDING, A BAR,
WHEREVER IT IS YOU CAN CARRY IT
NOW, ON COLLEGE CAMPUSES.
>> THERE HAS BEEN A NARRATIVE
THAT THE NRA MAY BE LOSING SOME
OF ITS POWER BECAUSE OF WHAT YOU
REPORT HERE, BUT ALSO WHAT’S
HAPPENING AT THE TOP OF THAT
ORGANIZATION AND THE DISCONNECT
WITH A LOT OF ITS MEMBERSHIP.
IS THAT AN ACCURATE AND A FAIR
NARRATIVE THAT THE NRA IS
PERHAPS NOT AS POWERFUL AS IT
USED TO BE?
>> I THINK THAT IS TRUE.
I THINK THAT THE GUN VIOLENCE
PREVENTION GROUPS ON THE OTHER
SIDE HAVE BUILT UP FRUX
INFRASTRUCTURE THAT’S NOT QUITE
THERE BUT IT IS ON PACE TO MATCH
WHAT THE NRA HAS BEEN BUILDING
OVER A NUMBER OF YEARS.
>> YOU SAY MATCH, BUT THEY
OUTSPENT THE NRA IN 2018, RIGHT?
>> THAT’S CORRECT.
>> SIGNIFICANTLY.
>> SIGNIFICANTLY. >> VERY SIGNIFICANTLY.
THAT WAS THE OTHER THING I WAS
GOING TO SAY ACTUALLY, WHICH IS
BECAUSE THE NRA PUT ITSELF IN
THIS DIRE FINANCIAL STATE, WITH
ITS SPENDING, SELF-DEALING, ET
CETERA, IT CAN’T AFFORD TO SPEND
ON ELECTIONS THE WAY IT WAS,
ESPECIALLY HOW IT DID IN 2016.
>> IF I’M A MEMBER OF THE NRA,
ACKERMAN McQUEEN GETS $40
MILLION A YEAR.
>> THAT WAS ONE YEAR TO ACCOUNT
FOR.
FOR. MORE THAN $40 MILLION WAS PAID.
>> HOW MUCH OF MY DUES GOES TO
THEM IN.
THEM IN. >> I GUESS IT IS HARD TO -- I
DON’T HAVE THE EXACT -- BUT TO
BE VERY CLEAR, THE NRA IS VERY
BAD AT CULTIVATING BIG MONEY
SINGLE DONORS.
SINGLE DONORS. THE VAST MAJORITY OF ITS REVENUE
IS COMING FROM ITS SMALL DUES
PAYING MEMBERS.
PAYING MEMBERS. >> THEY’RE INCREASING DUES
BECAUSE OF THE FINANCIAL
SELF-DEALING AND MISMANAGEMENT?
>> THEY’VE HAD TO DO IT A COUPLE
YEARS IN A ROW AFTER NOT HAVING
DONE IT FOR SOME 20 YEARS.
THEY’RE RELIANT ON THAT GROUP.
IT IS IMPORTANT FOR THEM TO KEEP
THEM INVOLVED AND CONTINUE TO
BUY THEIR MEMBERSHIPS AND OTHER
PRODUCTS.
PRODUCTS. >> I’M GOING TO GO TO SAM, BUT
I’VE ALWAYS TRIED TO EXPLAIN
THIS TO PEOPLE.
YOU HEAR ABOUT THE NRA.
THE NRA.
THE NRA. YOU’RE REALLY TALKING ABOUT
WAYNE LA PIERRE, COX, AND MAYBE
ONE OTHER PEOPLE IN WASHINGTON,
D.C.
D.C. YOU’RE TALKING ABOUT D.C.
LOBBYISTS.
LOBBYISTS. >> RIGHT.
>> RIGHT. >> THEN YOU TAKE A POLL OF NRA
MEMBERS, AND YOU’LL SEE 60%, 70%
OF NRA MEMBERS SUPPORT INCREASED
BACKGROUND CHECKS.
BACKGROUND CHECKS. >> RIGHT.
>> RIGHT. >> ALMOST A MAJORITY, A BAN ON
MILITARY STYLE ASSAULT WEAPONS.
THERE IS THIS MASSIVE DISCONNECT
BETWEEN THE THREE WASHINGTON
LOBBYISTS WHO SS WHO ARE GETTING
PREACHING GUN RIGHTS, AND THE
MILLIONS OF MEMBERS WHO ARE THE
NRA.
NRA. >> I THINK THAT IS BASICALLY
TRUE.
TRUE. I THINK ONE OF THE ISSUES,
COMING BACK TO ACKERMAN McQUEEN,
AND TO BE CLEAR, THIS IS JUST
THE MOMENT PROMINENT EXAMPLE OF
THE ISSUES THAT THE NRA HAS.
THERE’S A NUMBER OF VENDORS AND
CONTRACTORS AND OTHER
ARRANGEMENTS BEYOND WHAT
ACKERMAN McQUEEN PROVIDES, BUT
MESSAGING FORCES THE LOBBYISTS
INTO POSITIONS THEY MIGHT NOT
OTHERWISE TAKE, WHICH IS
INTERESTING.
INTERESTING. WHICH IS WHY NRA LOBBYISTS, THE
ONES YOU DON’T KNOW, FREQUENTLY
COMPLAIN ABOUT THE EXTREME
MESSAGING, THAT IT DOESN’T
REALLY HAVE -- THERE IS NO
OVERSIGHT, BASICALLY.
OVERSIGHT, BASICALLY. IT HAPPENS.
IT HAPPENS. IT GOES OUT INTO THE WORLD.
PEOPLE THINK DANA LASH IS A
LOBBYIST, WHICH IS INTERESTING.
>> GOT PAID $1 MILLION.
>> RIGHT.
>> RIGHT. >> BY THEM TO DO THAT.
>> SOMETHING NEAR THAT, YEAH.
CLOSE TO $1 MILLION.
>> AFFECTING PEOPLE’S LIVES.
>> OURS.
>> OURS. >> AT LEAST IT LOOKS LIKE SHE’S
THREATENING PEOPLE’S LIVES.
>> HOURGLASS.
>> HOURGLASS. >> YOUR TIME IS RUNNING OUT.
>> I’LL TAKE THAT AS A THREAT.
>> GET PAID $1 MILLION TO
THREATEN PEOPLE’S LIVES.
BY THE WAY, THAT NOT ONLY HURTS
MEMBERSHIP, THAT HURTS THEM ON
CAPITOL HILL.
CAPITOL HILL. I’VE HEARD IT SPECIFICALLY, THAT
INSTEAD OF WORRYING ABOUT GUN
CULTURE, THREATENING
CULTURE, THREATENING JOURNALISTS’ LIVES, NOT A GOOD
MARKETING MOVE.
MARKETING MOVE. SAM STEIN?
SAM STEIN? >> WELL, THOUGHTS AND PRAYERS TO
THE NRA.
THE NRA. SECONDARILY, I DO AGREE WITH THE
GENERAL CONSENSUS HERE, WHICH IS
THAT THE GROUP, ESSENTIALLY, HAS
LEFT ITS ROOTS.
WE HAD SOMEONE AT THE RECENT
CONVENTION IN INDIANAPOLIS DOING
SOME REPORTING, TALKING TO
PEOPLE WHO DROVE FOUR HOURS,
FIVE HOURS JUST TO BE THERE, AND
WATCH THIS DRAMA UNFOLD, AS ALL
OF THIS SPENDING WAS BROUGHT TO
THE SURFACE, AND WONDER WHAT
EXACTLY THE NRA WAS DOING.
THEY WANT THEM TO FOCUS ON GUN
RIGHTS.
RIGHTS. THEY FEEL THEY’VE BECOME A
CULTURAL INSTITUTION.
CULTURAL INSTITUTION. THIS STARTED IN THE ’90s AND
ACCELERATED IN THE OBAMA ERA,
WHEN THE GROUP WAS FOCUSED ON
THE KNOCKOUT GAME.
AS ONE EXAMPLE OF WHAT A
CULTURAL FORCE IT BECAME, THE
NRA IN 2016 DID A $2 MILLION
TELEVISION ADVERTISEMENT ON
BENGHAZI
BENGHAZI BENGHAZI.
BENGHAZI. I GET THAT BENGHAZI WAS AN
IMPORTANT LEKELECTORAL ISSUE, BU
HAVE PROBLEM FIGURING OUT WHAT
THE TIE IS TO GUN RIGHTS.
WHEN YOU WATCH THIS HAPPEN, WHAT
IS TAKING PLACE IS THE NRA
ESSENTIALLY RAISES MONEY BY
BECOMING AN INSTITUTION, A
VANGUARD OF THE CULTURE WARS.
IT HAS ALL THIS MONEY AND SPENDS
IT IN INSANE WAYS.
NOW, IT IS COMING BACK TO BITE
THEM.
THEM. >> IT IS.
>> IT IS. THE NRA’S NEWLY ELECTED
PRESIDENT HAS DECIDED TO
CONTINUE THE TRADITION OF
WASHINGTON LOBBYISTS, GUN LOBBY
LOBBYIST
LOBBYIST LOBBYISTS, AND SAY STUPID THINGS
THAT HURT THE GROUP’S MEMBERS
POLITICALLY.
POLITICALLY. TAKEN A HARD LINE ON THE
POLITICAL DEBATE IN OUR BACKYARD
BACKYARD.
BACKYARD. LONG-TIME GEORGIA RESIDENT
MEADOWS SET THE FOCUS ON
FLIPPING HER HOME CONGRESSIONAL
DISTRICT FROM BLUE TO WOMAN.
DEMOCRATIC CONGRESSWOMAN FROM
THE 6th DISTRICT, McBATH, WON
HER VICTORY IN LAST YEAR’S
ELECTIONS.
ELECTIONS. SHE IS AN AFRICAN-AMERICAN WHO
CAMPAIGNED ON GUN VIOLENCE
REFORM IN A MAJORITY WHITE
DISTRICT AFTER HER SON, JORDAN,
WAS SHOT TO DEATH.
IN AN INTERVIEW, MEADOWS SAID
THAT IT WAS WRONG TO SAY, QUOTE,
THE REASON McBATH WON WAS
BECAUSE OF HER ANTI-GUN STANCE.
THAT DIDN’T HAVE ANYTHING TO DO
WITH IT.
WITH IT. IT WAS BECAUSE SHE WAS A
MINORITY FEMALE.
MINORITY FEMALE. >> WOW.
>> WOW. >> CONGRESSWOMAN McBATH HAS
SINCE PUSHED BACK IN A SERIES OF
TWEETS LACED WITH PHOTOS OF HER
DEAD SON.
DEAD SON. McBATH WROTE, I WON THE RACE
BECAUSE, AFTER MY SON WAS
SENSELESSLY MURDERED IN 2012, I
STOOD UP TO DO SOMETHING ABOUT
IT.
IT. IN A STATEMENT TO THE
"WASHINGTON POST," MEADOWS
APOLOGIZED TO McBATH FOR HER
COMMENTS.
COMMENTS. >> YEAH.
>> YEAH. >> IT JUST SEEMS, AGAIN, THESE
LOBBYISTS IN WASHINGTON, D.C.
ARE ALL GETTING INCREDIBLY
WEALTHY, RUNNING THE NRA INTO
THE GROUND, AND STICKING THE
BILL TO RANK AND FILE MEMBERS.
>> THAT SOUNDS EXACTLY WHAT
MIKE’S REPORTING SAYS.
I WILL SAY VERY QUICKLY, ON THE
IDEA THE NRA PRESIDENT WAS
TALKING ABOUT McBATH, SAYING SHE
WAS ONLY ELECTED BECAUSE SHE WAS
A MINORITY FEMALE, I’VE KNOWN
McBATH FOR MANY YEARS.
INTERVIEWED HER SEVERAL TIMES.
IN THE DEATH OF HER SON JORDAN,
IT WAS REALLY SOMETHING THAT
CHANGED, OBVIOUSLY CHANGED HER
LIFE, BUT REALLY SPURRED HER
INTO ACTION.
INTO ACTION. SHE TALKED ABOUT HER STORY ON
THE CAMPAIGN TRAIL.
SHE WAS SOMEONE WHO WAS VERY
CLEAR ABOUT HER MESSAGE, THAT
GUNS NEEDED TO BE REALLY LOOKED
AT, AND GUN ISSUES NEEDED TO BE
LOOKED AT.
LOOKED AT. I THINK JUST TO SAY THAT THAT,
THE NRA PRESIDENT, GOING INTO
THE CULTURAL WARS, THAT THE
ORGANIZATION HAS BEEN KNOWN FOR,
SHE’S EMBRACING THIS IDEA THAT
THE NRA CAN GO PAST GUNS AND ASK
PEOPLE, WHAT DO YOU WANT AMERICA
TO BE?
TO BE? THIS THIS CASE, SHE’S ALMOST
SAYING, IF YOU’RE A MINORITY
FEMALE, YOU’RE GETTING SOMETHING
YOU DON’T DESERVE.
ADDING TO THIS REPORTING BY
MIKE, IT IS BREATHTAKING.
>> IT IS.
>> IT IS. >> ONE OF THE THINGS THAT’S
REALLY IMPORTANT IS THE IDEA
THAT THERE ARE PEOPLE CLOSE TO
NRA EXECUTIVES MAKING MONEY OFF
OF THE ORGANIZATION.
THEY’RE SOMEONE’S FATHER,
SOMEONE’S WIFE, SOMEONE’S
SIGNIFICANT OTHER.
SIGNIFICANT OTHER. THEY’RE ALL MAKING MONEY.
IT IS NOT EVEN JUST THE
EXECUTIVES, BUT THEY’RE BRINGING
IN PEOPLE CLOSE TO THEM AND
SAYING, HERE’S MONEY FROM THE
NRA, TOO.
NRA, TOO. >> YEAH.
>> YEAH. YOU KNOW, EDDIE, IT IS
INTERESTING.
INTERESTING. ON SOCIAL ISSUES LIKE GAY
MARRIAGE, ABORTION, GUN RIGHTS,
SOMETIMES PEOPLE ACT LIKE THOSE
ARE STATIC DEBATES.
>> RIGHT.
>> RIGHT. >> THAT THEY DON’T MOVE.
SAME-SEX MARRIAGE BEGAN MOVING
WHEN THE CULTURE WAS STARTING TO
CHANGE.
CHANGE. IT WAS NOT JUST WHAT WE SAW ON
TV.
TV. IT WAS THAT MORE AND MORE PEOPLE
WERE ACTUALLY COMING OUT AND
TELLING THEIR FRIENDS THAT THEY
HAD A SIGNIFICANT OTHER THEY’D
LIKE TO MARRY.
CULTURE CHANGED RADICALLY, JUST
LIKE THAT.
LIKE THAT. THE SAME THING WITH ABORTION.
A LOT OF AMERICANS HAVE BECOME
MORE CONSERVATIVE ON ABORTION,
SUPPORT LIMITS AT 20 WEEKS.
THAT’S BECAUSE 3D IMAGERY.
THAT’S BECAUSE YOU CAN GO INTO
THE WOMB AND YOU CAN SEE AT 20
WEEKS, YOU KNOW -- I COULD SEE,
AS I’VE ALWAYS SAID, I COULD SEE
JACK’S PROFILE AT 20 WEEKS.
YOU SEE THE SIMILARITIES BETWEEN
HIM NOW AND HOW HE WAS AT 20
WEEKS.
WEEKS. HE WAS A PREMIE, SO WE SAW A LOT
OF HIM ACTUALLY WHILE HE WAS
STILL IN THE WOMB.
IT IS THE SAME THING WITH GUNS.
>> RIGHT.
>> RIGHT. >> YOU KNOW, I CHANGED MY VIEW
ON BACKGROUND CHECKS.
WANTED FAR MORE AGGRESSIVE
BACKGROUND CHECKS.
BACKGROUND CHECKS. MILITARY STYLE ASSAULT WEAPONS.
A LOT OF OTHER THINGS.
NOT JUST AFTER NEWTOWN.
THAT WAS AFTER VIRGINIA TECH.
IT HAVE AWE
AFTER AURORA.
AFTER AURORA. IT CONTINUED.
IT CONTINUED. MAYBE IT TOOK ME TOO LONG, BUT
AT THAT POINT, I SAID, THIS IS A
NATIONAL EPIDEMIC.
NATIONAL EPIDEMIC. I’M NOT ALONE.
WHAT I’M SAYING IS THERE’S A LOT
OF PEOPLE LIKE MANY THAT MIGHT
SCORE 100% ON NRA SCORECARDS
BACK IN THE 1990s, WHO TODAY ARE
SAYING, YUP, I’M GLAD HELLER WAS
DECIDED THE WAY IT WAS.
AMERICANS HAVE A RIGHT TO KEEP
AND BEAR ARMS, BUT THERE HAVE TO
BE LIMITS.
BE LIMITS. THERE IS A GROWING CRISIS.
>> JOE, YOU’RE RIGHT.
HUMAN BEINGS ARE DYNAMIC.
WE CAN TAKE IN INFORMATION, AND
OUR VIEWS CAN CHAKNGE AND EVOLVE
DOESN’T MAKE US FLIP-FLOPPERS.
IT MAKES US THOUGHTFUL PEOPLE.
I WANT TO SAY, IN LIGHT OF THE
BACKDROP TO MIKE’S REPORTING,
IT’S JUST WHAT HAPPENED IN
COLORADO.
COLORADO. >> RIGHT.
>> RIGHT. >> THERE IS A CHILD DEAD,
18-YEAR-OLD BOY DEAD.
EIGHT INJURIES.
EIGHT INJURIES. >> SCHOOL TRAUMATIZED.
>> COMMUNITY OF CHILDREN
TRAUMATIZE
TRAUMATIZE TRAUMATIZED.
TRAUMATIZED. >> THE OUTSIDE INFLUENCE.
>> WHAT ABOUT THE YOUNG MAN IN
NORTH CAROLINA THAT SAVED PEOPLE
IN HIS CLASSROOM?
>> PACTEXACTLY.
>> PACTEXACTLY. >> DEAD, TODAY, FOREVER.
>> OUTSIDE INFLUENCE OF WHAT
SEEMS TO BE CORRUPT PEOPLE, WHO
SEEM TO BE CORRUPT PEOPLE.
THE OUTSIDE INFLUENCE ON THE
CULTURE.
CULTURE. WHAT SAM SAID, HOW THEY’VE
LEVERAGED IN INTERESTING SORTS
OF WAYS THE CULTURE WARS FOR
THEIR OWN FINANCIAL GAIN, RIGHT?
THE BACKDROP OF WHAT THEY’RE
DOING, HOW CYNICAL AND INDID
SIDIOUSSID
SIDIOUSSID INSIDIOUS, IS A CULTURE WHERE
GUNS CAN DO THIS DAMAGE.
WHEN WE TALK ABOUT THE STATE OF
THE NRA, WE NEED TO UNDERSTAND
THE DAMAGE THAT HAS BEEN DONE
AND IS BEING DONE, AND KEEP IN
MIND WHAT HAS HAPPENED AT THE
S.T.E.M. SCHOOL IN COLORADO.
MY HEART GOES OUT TO THE PARENTS
OF THE CHILD WHO DIED.
>> MIDDLE SCHOOL.
>> UNC CHARLOTTE.
>> EXACTLY.
>> EXACTLY. >> WE SEE THIS IN HOT-BUTTON
ISSUES, WHERE EXTREMISTS GET
CONTROL AND WILL MAKE MONEY.
PROFITS.
PROFITS. HERE AGAIN, I WANT TO KEEP
UNDERLINEING IT, AND TELL ME IF
I’M WRONG, WHEN WE TALK ABOUT
THE, QUOTE, NRA, THAT MOST
PEOPLE TALK ABOUT, THEY’RE NOT
TALKING ABOUT THE MILLIONS OF
MEMBERS.
MEMBERS. THEY’RE TALKING ABOUT THREE
LOBBYISTS WHO HAVE TAKEN
MILLIONS OF PEOPLE’S DOLLARS,
AND THEY AND THEIR FAMILIES HAVE
GOTTEN INCREDIBLY RICH, AND
THEY’VE RUN THIS ORGANIZATION
INTO THE GROUND FINANCIALLY.
>> RIGHT.
>> RIGHT. YOU USE THE WORD "CYNICAL" AND
"INSIDIOUS," WHICH IS BASICALLY
THE PERFECT WAY TO DESCRIBE IT.
IT IS SOME OF THE PEOPLE YOU’VE
MENTIONED.
MENTIONED. IT IS A LARGER POOL THAN THAT.
MOST OF THE NRA’S EXECUTIVES.
SOMEONE WAS MENTIONING BEFORE,
TALKING ABOUT ONE EXECUTIVE IN
PARTICULAR WHO IS GIVING PAYOUTS
TO HIS DAD, TO HIS FORMER
BUSINESS PARTNER, TO OTHER
PEOPLE WHO ARE RELATED TO HIM,
OTHERS GIVING PAYOUTS TO
FRIENDS, FAMILY.
FRIENDS, FAMILY. I MEAN, THERE’S AN ENDLESS
AMOUNT OF BENEFITS THAT SEEM TO
COME ALONG WITH BEING CONNECTED
TO A TOP NRA OFFICIAL.
THE QUESTION YOU HAVE TO ASK
YOURSELF, WHEN WE’RE TALKING
ABOUT THESE HORRIBLE INCIDENTS,
WHAT IS THIS WHOLE DEBATE ABOUT?
WHAT IS IT ALL FOR?
THE WORST POSSIBLE ANSWER IS
THAT IT COULD BE FOR
SELF-ENRICHMENT.
SELF-ENRICHMENT. THAT IS WHAT IT STARTS TO FEEL
LIKE AS YOU EXAMINE DOCUMENTS
THAT WERE CREATED BY THE NRA’S
OWN ACCOUNTANTS SPECIFICALLY.
THIS ISN’T LIKE MY OPINION.
IT IS NOT ANONYMOUS SOURCES.
THIS IS PAPER CREATED BY THE
NRA’S OWN ACCOUNTANTS, SAYING
HERE ARE ALL OF THESE PROBLEMS
THAT HAVE TO DO WITH OUR VENUES,
CONTRACTORS, EXECUTIVES, WHO ARE
FINDING WAYS TO PAD THEIR
POCKETS.
POCKETS. WE DON’T UNDERSTAND IT.
WE DON’T GET HOW THE CASH FLOWS.
WE’RE THE ONES WHO ARE SUPPOSED
TO KNOW HOW THE CASH FLOWS.
>> SAM, PEOPLE INSIDE THE NRA
ARE SAYING THIS.
THERE’S SOMETHING ROTTEN IN
DENMARK.
DENMARK. >> RIGHT.
>> RIGHT. >> THERE IS A REAL PROBLEM HERE.
>> WELL, JOE, TO YOUR POINT,
PEOPLE DON’T REMEMBER THE EARLY
YEARS OF THE OBAMA
ADMINISTRATION, BUT HE WAS
INCREDIBLY, INCREDIBLY RELUCTANT
TO DO ANYTHING ON GUNS FOR YEARS
AND YEARS.
AND YEARS. REALLY TOOK TO NEWTOWN FOR HIM
TO WEIGH IN ON THE ISSUE.
NOW, YOU SEE IN THE DEMOCRATIC
PARTY, VIRTUALLY NO ONE, WITH A
FEW EXCEPTIONS, HAVING ANY
HESITATION WHATSOEVER EMBRACING
GUN REFORM LAWS.
THAT’S BECAUSE, IN PART, OF THE
CHANGE IN POLITICAL DYNAMICS,
THE CULTURAL DYNAMICS, BUT IT IS
ALSO A REACTION TO THE NRA’S
DECISION TO ALIGN ITSELF SO MUCH
WITH ONE POLITICAL PARTY, TO GET
SO IN BED PRESIDENT TRUMP
CAMPAIGN, IT MADE A HISTORIC
EXPENDITURE FOR TRUMP’S
ELECTION, THAT DEMOCRATS NO
LONGER -- THEY USED TO FEEL LIKE
THEY HAD TO AT LEAST FEIGN
INTEREST IN GUN RIGHTS.
THEY NO LONGER FEEL THAT WAY.
I THINK THAT’S PROBLEMATIC FOR
THE INSTITUTION ITSELF IN THE
LONG TERM.
LONG TERM. >> SAM STEIN.
>> YOU ACTUALLY HAD JACK MERTHA,
PRO-GUN GUY.
PRO-GUN GUY. JOHN DZINGEL, PRO-GUN GUY.
I MEAN, THERE WERE DEMOCRATS
THAT, AGAIN, PROUDLY, WHEN THE
POSITION WASN’T EXTREME, YEAH, I
CAN DO THAT AND GO BACK TO THE
CONSTITUENCIES.
CONSTITUENCIES. >> BERNIE SANDERS.
>> PLENTY.
>> PLENTY. >> SAM STEIN, THANK YOU.
MIKE, WE’LL BE READING THE NEW
REPORTING ON THE NRA AT NEW
YORKER.COM.
YORKER.COM. THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR BEING
ON.
ON. >> THANKS FOR HAVING ME.
>>> COMING UP, A STUNNING CHART
FROM "THE NEW YORK TIMES,"
DETAILING DONALD TRUMP’S
FINANCIAL LOSSES OVER THE COURSE
OF --
OF -- >> IS THAT A ROLLER COASTER?
>> -- A DECADE.
NO, A ROLLER COASTER GOES UP AND
DOWN.
DOWN. >> EXACTLY.
>> EXACTLY. >> STEVE RATNER KNOWS A THING OR
TWO ABOUT CHARTS AND JOINS US
AHEAD.
AHEAD. >>> A REAL-LIFE STORY THAT
SOUNDS LIKE THE PLOT OF A MOVIE,
AND IT MIGHT BECOME ONE.
>> HAVE YOU SEEN THIS?
>> INCREDIBLE.
>> INCREDIBLE. "NEW YORK" MAGAZINE IS DETAILING
HOW A GROWN MAN MOVED ONTO A
COLLEGE CAMPUS AND BEGAN
MANIPULATING A GROUP OF HIS
DAUGHTER’S CLASSMATES.
DAUGHTER’S CLASSMATES. UNBELIEVABLE STORY.
UNBELIEVABLE STORY. >> HE SHATTERED THEIR LIVES.
>> NEXT ON "MORNING JOE."