THE MOVE IS A SIGNIFICANT DEVELOPMENT FOR MICHAEL COHEN.
BUT TIME WILL TELL IF IT IS A SIGNIFICANT DEVELOPMENT FOR A
SIGNIFICANT DEVELOPMENT FOR
PRESIDENT TRUMP.
I WANT TO BRING IN A COUPLE OF
EXPERTS, TWO MSNBC LEGAL
ANALYSTS FROM SORT OF BOTH SIDES
OF THE TABLE HERE. ONE FORMER DISTRICT ATTORNEY IN
THE SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW
YORK, PROSECUTOR SIDE OF THINGS
AND CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY DANNY IS A VAL OWES. ATTORNEY
DANNY IS A VAL OWES. I WANTED BOTH OF YOU BECAUSE I
WANTED TO SEE IF WE COULD GET
INTO THE MIND-SET OF BOTH SIDES
OF THIS.
DANNY, I WANT TO START WITH YOU.
YOU CHANGE LAWYERS WHY?
>> THERE ARE A NUMBER OF REASONS
WHY A CLIENT MAY SEPARATE FROM
HIS COUNSEL. IT COULD BE NON-PAYMENT OF
BILLS.
BILLS.
THAT HAPPENS ALL THE TIME.
DEFENSE ATTORNEYS CALL THIS RULE
ONE, AS IN THE FIRST RULE IS YOU HAVE TO GET PAID.RST RULE IS YOU
HAVE TO GET PAID. IT COULD ALSO BE A SITUATION
WHERE THE ATTORNEYS MUST WITHDRAW. ATTORNEYS MUST
WITHDRAW.
ATTORNEYS MUST WITHDRAW FROM REPRESENTATION FOR EXAMPLE, IF A
CLIENT IS SEEKING ADVICE TO
COMMIT A FUTURE CRIME.
IM NOT SAYING THATS WHAT IS
HAPPENING HERE. BUT THAT IS ONE OF THE INSTANCES
WHERE ATTORNEYS HAVE TO
WITHDRAW.
ONE EXAMPLE MIGHT BE THAT COHEN
SIMPLY DOESNT WANT THESE
ATTORNEYS ANYMORE.
THERE HAS BEEN IRRETRIEVABLE
BREAKDOWN IN THE COMMUNICATION
BETWEEN COUNSEL AND CLIENT, DISAGREEMENT ON STRATEGY.T,
DISAGREEMENT ON STRATEGY. ANY OF THESE REASONS ARE VALID
REASONS WHY ATTORNEYS AND
CLIENTS SEPARATE FROM EACH
OTHER.
OTHER.
THERE ARE SOME INSTANCES WHERE IT VOLUNTARY AND SOME INSTANCES
AS IN THE COMMISSION OF A FUTURE
CRIME WHERE AN ATTORNEY MUST
SEEK TO WITHDRAW.
WITHOUT KNOWING MORE, AND WE ARE
NOT LIKELY TO HEAR MORE, BECAUSE
ITS PRIVILEGED COMMUNICATION,
WE ARE LEFT SPECULATING AS TO
WHAT THE TRUE REASON IS, WHETHER
ITS MONEY OR SOMETHING ELSE.
>> MIMI ROCHA, THE SPECULATION,
THE RUMOR WIRE WENT BERSERKO
BECAUSE THE INITIAL REPORT ABOUT
MICHAEL COHEN CHANGING LAWYERS
SORT OF INDICATED THIS COULD BE
HIM PREPARING TO FLIP.
WALK ME THROUGH THAT SIDE OF
THINGS.
THINGS.
WHAT DOES THAT LOOK LIKE, WHEN YOU GUYS WERE WORKING WITH BEN
YOU GUYS WERE WORKING WITH BE SOME YOU WERE GOING TO PROSECUTE
THAT SUDDENLY WAS GOING TO
COOPERATE.
COOPERATE.
WALK ME THROUGH THAT PROCESS? >> WELL, SO, DANNY IS EXACTLY
RIGHT.
RIGHT.
AS YOU SAID, WE ARE SPECULATING
AS TO WHY COHEN HAS SWITCHED
LAWYERS.
BUT IT IS TRUE -- I CANT GIVE YOU A STATISTIC, BUT IN MYIVE
YOU A STATISTIC, BUT IN MY EXPERIENCE PEOPLE DO OFTEN
CHANGE LAWYERS BEFORE THEY
COOPERATE.
COOPERATE.
HERES WHY. IN ORDER TO COOPERATE, SOMEONE
HAS TO COME TO TERMS WITH THE
FACT THEY ARE EVENTUALLY GOING
TO HAVE TO PLEAD GUILTY AND
ACCEPT FOM RESPONSIBILITY AND
ADMIT TO CRIME.
AND A LAWYER WHO IS ADVISING A
CLIENT TO DO THAT, SOMETIMES THE
CLIENT DOESNT WANT TO HEAR
THAT.
THAT. SO THE INSTINCT MAY BE I WANT A
NEW LAWYER BECAUSE THEY WANT A
LAWYER WHO WONT GIVE THAT
ADVICE, WE CAN GO TO TRIAL, BEAT
THIS.
THIS.
I DONT KNOW WHAT HAPPENED HERE.
BUT IN MY EXPERIENCE THAT
HAPPENS QUITE A BIT.
THEN WHAT HAPPENS IS YOU GET
ANOTHER, AND ANOTHER LAWYER WHO
IS ALSO HOPEFULLY A GOOD LAWYER TELLS THEM THE SAME THING.AWYER
TELLS THEM THE SAME THING. SOMETIMES CLIENTS NEED TO HEAR
IT MORE THAN ONE TIME, FROM
DIFFERENT LAWYERS BEFORE THEY
CAN COME TO TERMS WITH IT.
>> INTERESTING.
>> INTERESTING. >> IT DOES OFTEN -- THAT CHANGE,
THAT KIND OF TURMOIL IN THE
TEAM, IN THE LEGAL
REPRESENTATION, THERE IS OFTEN A
SHAKEUP BEFORE THERE IS
COOPERATION I THINK FOR THAT
REASON.
REASON.
I WANTED TO MAKE ONE POINT, THOUGH, WHICH IS ABOUT WHAT
COOPERATION MEANS.
COOPERATION MEANS. COOPERATION IS A PROCESS IN THE
FEDERAL SYSTEM.
FEDERAL SYSTEM. EVEN TODAY WHEN PEOPLE WERE
SAYING HE HAS A NEW LAWYER,
GOESING TO TO COOPERATE.
EVEN IF THAT WERE TRUE, THAT
WOULD MEAN HE IS BEGINNING THE
PROCESS AND STARTING TO MEET
WITH FEDERAL PROSECUTORS.
THIS IS GOING TO TAKE A LONG
TIME.
TIME.
IF HE EVER DOES COOPERATE ITS
NOT LIKE HE IS GOING TO DECIDE
TO COOPERATE, AND THE NEXT DAY
PLEAD GUILTY AND THATS IT.
IT IS A SERIES OF MEETINGS AND DISCUSSIONS, THEY ARE CALLEDND
DISCUSSIONS, THEY ARE CALLED PROFFERS.
PROFFERS.
IT TAKES A LONG TIME. HERE I IMAGINE IT WOULD TAKE A
PARTICULARLY LONG TIME BECAUSE
HE WOULD HAVE TO MEET WITH
DIFFERENT SETS OF PROSECUTORS,
BOTH FEDERAL, STATE, AND MOSSBLY
FROM MUELLERS SIDE.
>> GABE CHERRERMANSHERMAN, HE TW
THIS, A PERSON CLOSE TO COHEN
SAYS HE HASNT FLIPPED YET.
QUOTE, HE IS SENDING UP A SMOKE
SIGNAL TO TRUMP, I NEED HELP.
NOW, DANNY AND MIMI IM GUESSING
ITS NOT EVERY DAY THAT EITHER
ONE OF YOU DEAL WITH CLIENTS WHO
HAVE THE OPPORTUNITY TO PERHAPS
GET A PARDON IN ORDER TO DEAL
WITH THEIR SITUATION.
BUT DANNY, LET ME START WITH
YOU.
YOU.
FIRST OF ALL, HAVE YOU EVER HAD EXPERIENCE WITH CLIENT WHOR HAD
EXPERIENCE WITH CLIENT WHO PERHAPS HAD AN ACCESS TO A
PARDON LIKE THIS?
AND IF NOT, WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF
TRYING TO SEND A SIGNAL LIKE
THIS.
THIS.
>> NO, I HAVE NEVER DEALT WITH A PARDON.I HAVE NEVER DEALT WITH A
PARDON.
MOST OF MY COLLEAGUES NEVER DEALT WITH A PARDON.S NEVER
DEALT WITH A PARDON. THE PARDON PROCESS IS SO
DISTINCT FROM THE CRIMINAL
JUSTICE SYSTEM THAT I CANT
THINK OF A SINGLE COLLEAGUE WHO
HAS HANDLED ONE ALTHOUGH THEY
ARE CERTAINLY OUT THERE AND I
COULD PROBABLY LOOK THEM UP IF I
NEEDED TO.
NEEDED TO. YOU ARE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT.
IN THIS CASE WE HAVE A RARE
INSTANCE WHERE A POTENTIAL
TARGET MAYBE A FUTURE DEFENDANT
LIKE COHEN -- IT MAY BE SENDING
UP A SIGNAL SAYING, IVE CHANGED
ATTORNEYS, IF THAT MAKES YOU
NERVOUS, MR. PRESIDENT, NOW IS
THE TIME TO PARDON ME.
THE CLOCK IS TICKING.
BECAUSE IF MICHAEL COHEN GOES
INTO A PROFFER MEETING, ENTERS
INTO A PROFFER AGREEMENT,
PROVIDES INFORMATION TO U.S.
ATTORNEYS, AND ENTERS INTO SOME
KIND OF DEAL, YOU CANT UNRING
THAT BELL.
THAT BELL. THE AUSAs WHO HEAR THE
INFORMATION HE HAS TO GIVE THEM
CANT UNHEAR IT AFTER ITS OUT
THE DOOR.
THE DOOR. SO IF THE TIME TO PARDON IS --
IF ITS GOING TO HAPPEN, THE
TIME IS NOW.
AND COHEN CERTAINLY KNOWS THAT.
AND MAYBE WITHIN THE NEXT COUPLE
OF DAYS WE WILL SEE WHAT
PRESIDENT TRUMPS TEMPERATURE IS
ON THE PARDON PROCESS.
>> MIMI, DOES A PARDON COVER THE
EVIDENCE?
EVIDENCE?
LIKE IF LETS SAY THE PRESIDENT PARDONS MICHAEL COHEN TOMORROW.
ALL THAT EVIDENCE THAT WAS
GATHERED UP BY PROSECUTORS AND
THEY HAVE BEEN GOING THROUGH IT
TO DECIDE HOW MUCH OF IT FALLS
UNDER ATTORNEY CLIENT PRIVILEGE
AND HOW MUCH OF IT CAN
INVESTIGATORS LEGALLY USE --
WHAT HAPPENS TO THAT UNDER A
PARDON SITUATION?
PARDON SITUATION?
>> NOTHING. THE EVIDENCE STILL EXISTS.
YOU KNOW, ITS THE SAME THING
PEOPLE TALK ABOUT MUELLER
GETTING FIRED.
GETTING FIRED.
EVEN IF MUELLER WAS FIRED TOMORROW, THE EVIDENCE STILL
EXISTS.
EXISTS. TECHNICALLY, THE EVIDENCE BEFORE
SOMEONE IS CHARGED ACTUALLY
BELONGS TO THE FBI NOT TO THE
PROSECUTORS OFFICE.
PROSECUTORS OFFICE. ALTHOUGH OBVIOUSLY THEY SHARE
IT.
IT.
>> INTERESTING.
>> BUT THE EVIDENCE IS STILL
THERE.
AND WHILE THEY MAY NOT BE ABLE
TO PROSECUTE COHEN FOR FEDERAL CRIMES AS MANY PEOPLE HAVEERAL
CRIMES AS MANY PEOPLE HAVE EXPLAINED, THERE IS STILL THE
POSSIBILITY OF PROSECUTING HIM
FOR STATE CRIMES.
THERE ARE SOME DOUBLE JEOPARDY
ISSUES AND ITS KIND OF
COMPLICATED BUT THERE IS
DEFINITELY THAT POSSIBILITY.
AND THERE IS CERTAINLY THE
POSSIBILITY THAT THAT EVIDENCE
IS STILL USED TO PROSECUTE OTHER
TARGETS.
TARGETS.
WE DONT KNOW RIGHT NOW HOW FAR OUTSIDE THE CIRCLE OF COHEN THE
EVIDENCE GOES.
EVIDENCE GOES. BUT YOU KNOW WE HAVE HAD
INDICATIONS ITS NOT JUST ABOUT
MICHAEL COHEN.
MICHAEL COHEN.
>> MIMI, THE LAST -- >> YEAH? THE LAST --
>> YEAH?
>> NO. GO AHEAD.
GO AHEAD. >> I WANTED TO MAKE ONE OTHER
POINT ALONG THE LINES OF SORT OF
WHAT WE CAN READ INTO THE
ATTORNEY SHIFT.
ATTORNEY SHIFT. I THINK WE WILL KNOW A LITTLE
BIT MORE WHEN WE SEE WHAT
ATTORNEY COHEN GETS.
RIGHT?
RIGHT?
>> RIGHT.
>> SO THERE ARE CERTAIN
ATTORNEYS THAT DONT COOPERATE
PEOPLE.
THEY HAVE A POLICY AGAINST IT.
THEY ARE PHILOSOPHICALLY OPPOSED TO IT.RE PHILOSOPHICALLY OPPOSED
TO IT. THAT HAPPENS MORE IN THE SORT OF
MAFIA ARENA, THAT THERE ARE
ATTORNEYS WHO REPRESENT PEOPLE
IN THE MAFIA WORLD.
AND WHEN OF THOSE ATTORNEYS WAS
RETAINED YOU KNEW AS A
PROSECUTOR OKAY THIS GUY IS NOT
COMING IN.
COMING IN. >> GOTCHA.
>> GOTCHA. >> THERE IS THAT KIND OF
INDICATION.
INDICATION.
IT COULD BE HE GOES FOR A
SMALLER SOLO PRACTITIONER.
THAT MIGHT INDICATE IT WAS A FINANCIAL THING BECAUSE ITSA
FINANCIAL THING BECAUSE ITS LIKELY TO BE A LOWER RATE
ATTORNEY.
ATTORNEY. SO THERE ARE DIFFERENT THINGS
THAT WE MIGHT -- IF IT IS A
FORMER PROSECUTOR FOR THE
SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK
THAT MIGHT TELL US SOMETHING.
I THINK WE WILL HAVE MORE IN THE
SMOKE SIGNALS WHEN WE SEE THAT.
>> MIMI, DANNY, YOU MADE ME