David: There's just this incredible story, and by incredible I mean I'm glad to see it,
not incredible, it's actually pretty logical. In Illinois, they're hoping to, some people
are hoping to abolish the death penalty altogether. The Illinois Senate voted a few days ago to
abolish capital punishment, and this would now send the issue to Governor Pat Quinn.
And then the idea here, we don't know, I haven't heard whether Pat Quinn is actually going
to vote for this or not, and let's put the map up of where we actually still use the
death penalty across the world and where we don't.
This is a state, Illinois, that actually removed 20 wrongly-condemned people from death row
since 1987. So whenever people like to make the argument there's really no risk of executing
innocent people with the death penalty, well, if you believe that every single one after
being convicted will somehow be found to be innocent and then released, well, that's kind
of a long stretch. I don't believe that. The Senate voted 32 to 25 to end execution more
than a decade after a former governor halted the punishment he called "haunted by the demon
of error". Illinois would be the fourth state since 2007 to get rid of capital punishment.
It would make it 15 total.
And I believe that this is the right way to go. What's... I don't know that we're even
clear, Louis, your position on capital punishment.
Louis: I'm against the death penalty, but probably not for the same reason I think most
people are against it.
David: Oh, here we go. This... I sense there's something here. What reason are you against
it for?
Louis: I just think life in federal prison is a fate worse than death.
David: You actually just think it's a worse punishment?
Louis: Yeah.
David: I honestly can't say I disagree. When I watch, we've talked before about these shows,
you know, if anybody's put on MSNBC Friday or Saturday late at night, the "Lockup" marathons,
I'm kind of addicted to those things, and it really does seem to me like it is just
an existence that 40, 50, 60 years of that to me does seem worse than death.
Louis: I know.
David: But that is not actually why I am against the death penalty. I mean, I believe that
the... it is barbaric to believe that we can do this eye for an eye and decide who needs,
if you have committed a murder, that then somebody else is deciding to murder you. And
I get that. You have committed a crime, you are not just a free, innocent person, but
to me, when we talk about pro-life, the business of putting people to death is not something
that I am involved in. And for those of you who are going to say well, you support legal
and safe abortions, that's right, I do, and flatly being against abortion can actually,
in many cases, end two lives, when that wouldn't be the case, doesn't have to be that way.
Louis: Right. I think we are above it. I think it would be good for the country to abolish
it completely.
David: Looking at the map, other first-world, industrialized, whatever the right term is
to use at this time countries do not have the death penalty. They have figured it out.
And if we look at the map and see what countries do still use the death penalty, are these
really the countries that we are trying to mirror? I don't think so.
And you know, I can imagine, when people say to me well, if somebody you knew was killed
and you knew who it was, you would want them put to death, wouldn't you? Yeah, I can imagine
that. I can imagine that. I mean, I can imagine a situation where I would want someone put
to death. I'm sure I could get to that point, but does that mean that it should be the policy
of the United States, because I can imagine a situation where I would be... I would have
a visceral response that would say this person deserves to die? There's a difference between
the victim of a crime wanting revenge, wanting justice even, if that's what you believe it
to be, and actually making it the policy. That's my view.
The other issue is does the death penalty prevent, does it act as a deterrent to crime?
There is no credible evidence that that's the case.
Louis: Right.
David: Study after study suggests that's not the case. There are so many other factors
anyway in terms of crime that even those who say well, states with death penalty laws don't
have... or rather, do have lower crime rates than states without such laws, that's not
the case. But even if it were, poverty, income, the weather's effect on seasonal depression,
I mean, how can we say that the death penalty being there is the deterrent? And by the way,
I'm making a hypothetical argument, because that evidence doesn't exist.
And this is especially true when we talk about the lone gunman acting alone, right, Louis?
Because if they are mentally ill, as many people claim, why would the death penalty
be a deterrent? And for those who say well, listen, if it's a premeditated crime, the
crime is planned beforehand, a professional hitman, for example, they intend and expect
to avoid punishment altogether by not getting caught, right? They're professionals. So it's
not going to be a deterrent in that case anyway, I believe.
Louis: I have to agree.
David: You don't believe that there is a deterrent effect to the death penalty?
Louis: No, no. And the facts speak for themselves.
Transcript provided by Alex Wickersham. For transcription, translation, captions, and
subtitles, contact Alex at directtranslation@gmail.com.