>>> THE PRESIDENT SPENT MONTHS
LYING TO HIS SUPPORTERS ABOUT AN
ELECTION HE CLAIMS FROM STOLEN
FROM HIM, RHETORIC THAT BECAME A
RALLYING CRY FOR RIOTERS
STORMING THE CAPITOL.
IN A "NEW YORK TIMES" COLUMN
NOTED HISTORIAN TIMOTHY
SCHNEIDER EXPLAINS HOW HE
BELIEVES TRUMP’S ASSAULT ON THE
TRUTH DAMAGES OUR DEMOCRACY,
WRITING POST TRUTH IS PRE
PREFASCISM, WHEN WE GIVE UP ON
TRUTH WE CONCEDE POWER TO THOSE
WITH THE WEALTH AND CHARISMA TO
CREATE SPECTACLE IN ITS PLACE.
AND HE’S THE AUTHOR OF 20
LESSONS FROM THE 20th CENTURY.
THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR BEING WITH
US.
I’VE BEEN ARGUING, WITHOUT YOUR
ACADEMIC CREDENTIALS AT ALL,
THAT WHAT WE WERE SEEING ON THE
CAPITOL, THE T-SHIRTS, THE ANTI
SEMITISM, THE WHITE SEPARATISM
AS TOXIC AS THAT IS IS PARTLY
THE RESULT OF THIS DENIAL OF
TRUTH.
DENIAL OF THE REALITY.
YOU’VE CONNECTED THE TWO, THE
DENIAL OF TRUTH TO FASCISM.
>> WELL, A BASIC ELEMENT OF
FASCISM IS THAT YOU TAKE THE
MESSINESS OF EVERYDAY LIFE, THE
COMPLICATEDNESS OF EVERYDAY LIFE
AND YOU REPLACE IT WITH A FEW OR
MAYBE JUST ONE BIG SIMPLE CLAIM.
A BIG LIE WHICH IS THE
FOUNDATION OF A STORY THAT
EXPLAINS EVERYTHING, THE BIG LIE
WHICH IS SO FALSE THAT IT
DIVIDES THE BELIEVERS FROM THE
NON-BELIEVERS AND A BIG LIE
WHICH IS ABOUT SOMETHING SO
IMPORTANT THAT IF YOU BELIEVE IN
IT THEN OF COURSE YOU FEEL
COMPELLED TOWARDS ACTION OR
TOWARDS VIOLENT ACTION.
THIS IS PART OF THE STORY OF THE
COLLAPSE OF DEMOCRACY IN THE
FIRST PART OF THE 20th CENTURY
AND I’M AFRAID IT’S PART OF OUR
STORY NOW TOO.
>> WHAT ARE THE SOURCES OF THIS
IN OUR SOCIETY, THAT MAKE SO
MANY PEOPLE VULNERABLE TO THEIR
OWN REALITY?
>> YEAH, I MEAN, YOU SUGGESTED
ALREADY, A HISTORICAL SOURCE,
WHICH IS THAT -- THERE IS A
FALSEHOOD DEEP WITHIN THE WAY A
LOT OF AMERICANS, ESPECIALLY
WHITE AMERICANS THINK ABOUT
HISTORY.
WE DON’T THINK ENOUGH ABOUT, OR
WE THINK WRONGLY ABOUT OR WE
DENY HOW UNDEMOCRATIC OUR
SOCIETY HAS OFTEN BEEN TOWARDS
AFRICAN-AMERICANS IN PARTICULAR.
WHEN WE DON’T RECOGNIZE THAT
PART OF OUR HISTORY, THEN WE
HAVE A TENDENCY TO THINK, WELL,
ONLY PEOPLE LIKE US SHOULD BE
REPRESENTED, OR AS THE WHITE
SUPREMACISTS IN THE CAPITOL
SAID, THIS IS OUR HOUSE.
IT DOESN’T BELONG TO THE VOTERS,
TO ALL AMERICANS, IT ONLY
BELONGS TO US.
IN THE LAST DECADE OR SO,
THERE’S BEEN ANOTHER SOURCE,
WHICH IS SOCIAL MEDIA.
SOCIAL MEDIA HAS KILLED LOCAL
NEWS, WHICH ONCE HELPED KEEP
PEOPLE TOGETHER BY GIVING THEM
COMMON SETS OF FACTS ABOUT WHAT
MATTERED TO THEM AND SOCIAL
MEDIA DRAWS US TOWARDS THE
THINGS THAT GET US EXCITED,
TOWARDS THE THINGS THAT WE
ALREADY BELIEVE.
SO MR. TRUMP HAS BEEN A KIND OF
MASTER OF BOTH OF THOSE
TRADITIONS.
HE’S BEEN A MASTER OF TELLING
HIS PEOPLE THAT THEY’RE THE ONLY
GOOD AMERICANS AND HE’S BEEN A
MASTER OF USING SOCIAL MEDIA TO
AROUSE PEOPLE AND TO TREAT
OTHERS AS ENEMIES.
>> HOW FRAGILE IS OUR DEMOCRACY
AFTER FOUR YEARS, AT LEAST, OF
LIES BEING TOLD FROM THE OVAL
OFFICE, FROM THE PODIUM IN THE
WHITE HOUSE, FROM THE STATE
DEPARTMENT, PLACES WHERE WE
ALWAYS EXPECTED AT LEAST FAX
BASED REPORTING, FROM THE
INTELLIGENCE LEADERS, HOW
FACTUAL ARE WE NOW?
>> I MEAN, I THINK IF WE’RE
HONEST ABOUT IT WE RECOGNIZE
THAT DEMOCRACY IS ALWAYS
FRAGILE.
DEMOCRACIES USUALLY COME APART.
IF WE’RE HONEST ABOUT IT, MORE
SELF-CRITICAL, WE REALIZE THAT
THERE’S NOTHING MAGICAL ABOUT
AMERICA, NOTHING EXCEPTIONAL
ABOUT AMERICA.
IF WE WANT DEMOCRACY THEN WE
HAVE TO DECIDE THAT WE STAND FOR
DEMOCRACY, AND AS WE’VE BEEN
SAYING ALL ALONG, IF WE WANT TO
HAVE A DEMOCRACY INTO THE FUTURE
THEN WE HAVE TO SAY WE CARE
ABOUT FACTUALITY, WE CARE ABOUT
TRUTH, WE CARE ABOUT SUPPORTING
THE PRESS, ESPECIALLY THE LOCAL
PRESS AND THE COURAGEOUS PEOPLE
WHO MAKE IT THEIR CALLING TO
BRING US THE TRUTH.
IF OUR DEMOCRACY’S FRAGILE NOW,
THEN IT WAS ALSO FRAGILE, LET’S
BE HONEST, FOUR YEARS AGO, WE’RE
SEEING MR. TRUMP HASTEN US TO
THE CULMINATION OF A LOT OF
PROBLEMS THAT WE’VE ALREADY HAD.
THIS IS HORRIBLE.
IT’S HORRIBLE TO WATCH A SCENE
IN WHICH OUR CAPITOL IS INVADED
AND IN WHICH PEOPLE’S LIVES WERE
AT RISK.
THIS COULD HAVE BEEN MUCH WORSE.
BUT WE CAN ALSO SEE THIS AS AN
OPPORTUNITY, AS AN OPPORTUNITY
TO UNDERSTAND OURSELVES BETTER,
OUR HISTORY BETTER, AND TO TAKE
SOME CLEAR STEPS TO TRY TO MOVE
OURSELVES TOWARDS BEING A BETTER
DEMOCRACY.
>> AND HOW MUCH RESPONSIBILITY
DO OTHERS IN THE REPUBLICAN
PARTY AND THE SENATE HAVE WHO
ARE DENYING THE REALITY, EVEN
DENYING THE REALITY OF THE BIDEN
VICTORY?
>> THEY BEAR A HUGE AMOUNT OF
RESPONSIBILITY.
I MEAN, WE COULD TAKE IT AS
GIVEN THAT MR. TRUMP WAS GOING
TO LIE AND TELL A BIG LIE.
IN FACT, HE WAS SAYING ALL
SUMMER AND ALL FALL THAT
WHATEVER THE RESULTS WERE HE WAS
GOING TO CLAIM VICTORY.
HE WAS BASICALLY PREDICTING HIS
OWN LIE.
WE CAN COUNT ON THAT.
YOU’RE VERY MUCH RIGHT, I MEAN,
THE PROBLEM IS THAT THE VAST
MAJORITY OF CONGRESSIONAL
REPUBLICANS WENT ALONG WITH THE
STORY IN ONE WAY OR ANOTHER.
THEY GAVE IT OXYGEN IN NOVEMBER
AND DECEMBER.
AND THANKS TO THAT ABOVE ALL
TENS OF MILLIONS OF AMERICANS
CAME TO BELIEVE IT.
IF REPUBLICANS HAD SAID IN
NOVEMBER, OKAY, WE LOST THE
ELECTION, TIME TO MOVE ON, THE
BIG LIE WOULD NEVER HAVE GOTTEN
OFF THE GROUND.
AND THIS, BY THE WAY, SUGGESTS A
SIMPLE SOLUTION.
IF REPUBLICANS WANT TO GET
BEYOND TRUMPISM THEY CAN DO
SOMETHING WHICH IS GOING TO BE
PAINFUL
PAINFUL FOR A MOMENT, BUT FEEL
GOOD IN THE LONG RUN, WHICH IS
JUST TELL THE SIMPLE TRUTH ABOUT