>> IT ISN’T TRUTH. TRUTH ISN’T TRUTH.
>>> WELCOME TO THE SECOND HOUR
OF KASIE DC.
AND MSNBC CONTRIBUTOR JON
MEACHAM, THE AUTHOR OF THE BOOK
"THE SOUL OF AMERICA, THE BATTLE
FOR OUR BETTER ANGELS."
JOHN, WE’LL START WITH YOU.
PRESIDENT TRUMP TWEETED, STUDY
THE LATE JOSEPH McCARTHY.
RIGGED WITCH HUNT.
COULD YOU PLEASE GIVE US ALL A
HISTORY LESSON ABOUT JOSEPH
McCARTHY, AND HOW THIS IS
RELEVANT, OR NOT?
>> YEAH.
>> YEAH. THIS IS A CASE WHERE I THINK
HE’S SUGGESTING THE WRONG
COURSE.
COURSE. THE MORE YOU LOOK AT JOE
McCARTHY, THE MORE YOU REALIZE
THAT JOE McCARTHY HAS BECOME
PRESIDENT, NOT THE JOE McCARTHY
IS WORKING IN THE SPECIAL
COUNSEL’S OFFICE.
COUNSEL’S OFFICE. JOE McCARTHY WAS A JUNIOR
SENATOR FROM WISCONSIN ON
LINCOLN’S BIRTHDAY IN 1950.
HE GAVE A SPEECH IN WHEELING,
WEST VIRGINIA WHERE HE SAID HE
HAD IN HIS HAND THE NAMES OF 205
COMMUNISTS, THE NUMBER WANDERED
DOWN IN THE STATE DEPARTMENT,
THE NUMBER WANDERED DOWN TO 57,
AND ULTIMATELY HE DIDN’T FIND
ANY.
ANY. HE CAME TO ANTI-COMMUNISM LATE.
THERE WERE COMMUNIST AGENTS IN
THE GOVERNMENT BUT THEY’D BEEN
LARGELY TAKEN CARE OF BY THE
TRUMAN ADMINISTRATION.
TRUMAN ADMINISTRATION. THE LESSON WAS, McCARTHY WAS A
FREELANCED REPORTER ENTRANCED BY
HIS OWN NAME IN PRINT, ON THE
RADIO AND ON TELEVISION.
HE WAS A FIGURE OF A NEW MODERN
MEDIA AGE THAT WAS UNFOLDING IN
THE EARLY 1950s, AND WAS
ULTIMATELY UNDONE ACCORDING TO
HIS OWN RUDY GIULIANI, A MAN
NAMED ROY COHN, WHO WAS DONALD
TRUMP’S LAWYER, WAS UNDONE
BECAUSE HE EXAGGERATED TOO MUCH.
HE OVERSTATED.
HE OVERSTATED. HE DIDN’T DELIVER ON WHAT HE HAD
PROMISED.
PROMISED. AND THE IDEA THAT DONALD TRUMP
WOULD BE OFFERING THE CHARGE OF
McCARTHYISM TOWARD ANYONE ELSE,
THE WORD IRONY NO LONGER THAT
HAS ANY APPLICATION IN OUR ERA.
BUT IT BLOWS IT UP BEYOND
RECOGNITION AT THIS POINT.
>> AND IT ALL, OF COURSE, IS
CYCLICAL.
CYCLICAL. GET TO BRAND NEW REPORTING FROM
THE "NEW YORK TIMES."
AND YET ANOTHER CONCERNING
HEADLINE FOR THIS PRESIDENT.
THIS ONE READS, QUOTE, TRUMP’S
LAWYERS’ SUDDEN REALIZATION,
THEY DON’T KNOW WHAT DON McGAHN
TOLD MUELLER’S TEAM.
THE PAPER REPORTED YESTERDAY
THAT McGAHN HAS BEEN COOPERATING
EXTENSIVELY WITH THE SPECIAL
COUNSEL’S RUSSIA INQUIRY, AND
NOW REPORTS MR. McGAHN’S LAWYER
ONLY PROVIDED A LIMITED
ACCOUNTING OF WHAT MR. McGAHN
SAID DURING SOME 30 HOURS OF
QUESTIONING.
QUESTIONING. "TIMES" WRITES THE PRESIDENT
SEEMED TO BE OBSESSED WITH THE
ROLE JOHN DEAN PLAYED AS AN
INFORMANT TO WATERGATE, McGAHN
REPORTEDLY TOLD OTHERS HE WAS
DETERMINED TO AVOID THE SAME
FATE AS DEAN.
AS FOR DEAN HIMSELF, HE TWEETED
THIS WEEKEND THAT McGAHN IS
DOING RIGHT.
DOING RIGHT. OH, AND POLITICO REPORTED
TONIGHT THAT MICHAEL COHEN’S
LAWYER LANNY DAVIS HAS BEEN
REACHING OUT REGULARLY TO
McGAHN.
McGAHN. SINCE WE’RE SPEAKING HISTORY
WITH JOHN DEAN, FASCINATING THAT
BOTH THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED
STATES, AS WELL AS HIS LAWYER
ARE THINKING ABOUT JOHN DEAN IN
THIS PARTICULAR MOMENT BECAUSE
DEAN HIMSELF DID WHAT HE DID,
AND PLEASE HELP FILL IN THE GAPS
FOR SOMEWHERE OUR VIEWERS WHO
MAY HAVE FORGOTTEN THESE BITS OF
THEIR AMERICAN HISTORY CLASSES.
ESSENTIALLY HE WAS AFRAID HE WAS
GOING TO BE THE SCAPEGOAT.
>> ABSOLUTELY.
>> ABSOLUTELY. DEAN WAS VERY YOUNG, I THINK 32,
33 YEARS OLD WHEN HE WAS IN THE
NIXON WHITE HOUSE, BROUGHT IN AS
WHITE HOUSE COUNSEL, IN AND OUT
OF A NUMBER OF MEETINGS IN THE
VERY HARD HITTING NIXON WHITE
HOUSE.
HOUSE. HE WAS THE FIRST REAL BREAK IN
THE ADMINISTRATION AS WATERGATE
BEGAN TO UNFOLD.
THE WATERGATE BREAK-IN WAS JUNE
17th, 1972.
17th, 1972. THE WATERGATE HEARINGS DIDN’T
START, I THINK, UNTIL MAY OF
’73.
’73. THEN THE DRAMA TOOK ANOTHER 14
MONTHS OR SO UNTIL NIXON
RESIGNED.
RESIGNED. DEAN WAS THAT FIGURE AS THE
HEARINGS WERE TAKING OFF WHO WAS
INCREDIBLY ADEPT AT FRAMING THE
ISSUE.
ISSUE. AS HE FAMOUSLY SAID, I BELIEVE
THERE WAS A CANCER GROWING ON
THE PRESIDENCY, BY WHICH HE
MEANT THE NIXON COVERUP WHICH
WAS ULTIMATELY PROVEN OUT BY THE
TAPES WHERE NIXON WAS SAYING WE
SHOULD USE ONE AGENCY TO BLOCK
ANOTHER AGENCY TO KEEP THE
INVESTIGATION FROM UNFOLDING.
ONE OF THE THINGS I THINK IS SO
INTERESTING ABOUT THE INVOCATION
OF JOHN DEAN AT THIS POINT IS,
REMEMBER, TRUMP’S FRAME OF
HISTORY IS NOT WHAT I WOULD CALL
WIDE.
WIDE. BUT BECAUSE OF HIS LONG-TIME --
I’M TRYING TO BE -- IT’S SUNDAY,
SO WE’RE BEING NICE.
BUT BECAUSE OF ROGER STONE, AND
STONE, OF COURSE, WAS A GREAT
NIXONITE AND A LONG-TIME TRUMP
ADVISER, THE NIXON EXAMPLE IS
VERY REAL TO PRESIDENT TRUMP.
AND DEAN IS IN THE WORLD, THE
ICONOGRAPHY OF NIXON AND
WATERGATE, DEAN IS THE RAT AS
TRUMP, THERE’S FREUD FOR YOU, AS
TRUMP SAID THIS WEEKEND.
SO THERE IS THIS OBSESSION.
I THINK THAT -- AND I WOULD
THINK THIS.
THINK THIS. SO TAKE IT FOR WHAT IT’S WORTH.
I THINK THE FACT THAT THE
PRESIDENT HAS BOTH INVOKED JOE
McCARTHY AND WATERGATE IN A VERY
SHORT PERIOD OF TIME DOES
SUGGEST THAT HE FEELS THE WALLS
CLOSING IN.
CLOSING IN. THOSE ARE THE TWO OF THE MOST
POR
POR DIVISIVE, DEVASTATING STORIES.
McCARTHY DIED AN ALCOHOLIC DEATH
IN 1957 AND PRESIDENT NIXON HAD
TO LEAVE WASHINGTON IN DISGRACE.
I THINK THERE’S SOMETHING
TELLING ABOUT THE FACT THAT
THESE ARE THE EXAMPLES THAT THE
PRESIDENT’S GOING BACK TO.
>> SHAWNA THOMAS, WHAT’S YOUR
TAKE ON THAT?
>> THE PRESIDENT IS LEARNING THE
RIGHT LESSON ABOUT WHAT THE
WHITE HOUSE COUNSEL’S JOB IS BY
INVOKING JOHN DEAN.
IT SEEMS HE CONFUSES A LOT OF
THINGS, HE CALLS IT A WITCH
HUNT, IS HE TALKING ABOUT
HIMSELF AND COLLUSION OR IS HE
TALKING ABOUT THE OVERALL IDEA
OF WHAT MUELLER IS
INVESTIGATING.
INVESTIGATING. THE WHITE HOUSE COUNSEL IS NOT
HIS PERSONAL LAWYER, AND I THINK
THAT IS STARTING TO BECOME VERY
CLEAR TO THE PRESIDENT.
AND MAYBE HIS PERSONAL LAWYERS,
LIKE RUDY GIULIANI IS TELLING
HIM THAT, IT’S NOT DON McGAHN’S
JOB TO PROTECT PRESIDENT TRUMP,
IT’S HIS JOB TO PROTECT THE
PRESIDENCY.
PRESIDENCY. IF THAT ALSO COMBINES WITH DON
McGAHN PROTECTING HIMSELF FROM
HAVING TO GO TO JAIL, WHICH I
BELIEVE JOHN DEAN HAD TO DO IN
THAT SITUATION, DON McGAHN IS
WORKING FOR HIMSELF, THE WHITE
HOUSE AND THE AMERICAN PEOPLE.
HE DOESN’T WORK FOR PRESIDENT
TRUMP.
TRUMP. >> THE "TIMES" DID REPORT THIS
WINTER THAT TRUMP HAS BEEN
FRUSTRATED WITH HIS LEGAL TEAM,
WITH PREVENTING ATTORNEY GENERAL
JEFF SESSIONS FROM RECUSING
HIMSELF FROM THE RUSSIA
INVESTIGATION, QUOTE, MR. McGAHN
WAS UNSUCCESSFUL AND THE
PRESIDENT ERUPTED IN ANGER IN
FRONT OF NUMEROUS WHITE HOUSE
OFFICIALS SAYING HE NEEDED HIS
ATTORNEY GENERAL TO PROTECT HIM.
MR. TRUMP SAID HE EXPECTED THE
OFFICIAL TO SAFEGUARD HIM THE
WAY ROBERT KENNEDY AS ATTORNEY
GENERAL HAD DONE FOR HIS BROTHER
AND ERIC HOLDER HAD FOR BARACK
OBAMA.
OBAMA. MR. TRUMP THEN ASKED, WHERE’S MY
ROY COHN.
ROY COHN. COHN WAS A MENTOR TO TRUMP WHO
PROSECUTES JULIUS AND ETHEL
ROSENBERG.
ROSENBERG. AND LATER FOUGHT BACK, WAVE
AFTER WAVE, OF FEDERAL CHARGES,
TOOTH AND NAIL.
>> I’M OUTLINING 15 SPECIFIC
DOCUMENTABLE INSTANCES WHERE
MORGAN’S OFFICE CALLED DOWN
LADIES I GO WITH, AND
INTERROGATED THEM, FRIGHTENED
LAWYERS OUT OF THE OFFICE,
GOTTEN A HOLD OF EVERY BANK IN
WHICH I DEAL AND MY FIRM DEALS.
>> THIS LATEST INDICTMENT IS
DECEITFUL, DISHONEST AND A CHEAP
GRAND STAND PLAYS.
HE TRIES HIS CASES WITH THE
SMEAR HEADLINES AND HE LOSES
THEM WHEN THEY GET TO COURT.
THIS THING IS MADE UP OUT OF
WHOLE CLOTH AND IS JUST A
CONTINUATION OF MR. MORGAN’S
VENDETTA AGAINST ME.
>> I WONDER WITH RUDY GIULIANI
HAS BEEN STUDYING THOSE TAPES.
RICK TYLER, THIS IS A PRESIDENT
WHO, TO A CERTAIN EXTENT, SEEMS
TO BE INCREASINGLY ON AN ISLAND,
HIS ORIGINAL LEGAL TEAM IS NO
LONGER WORKING FOR HIM.
THE LAWYERS INSIDE THE WHITE
HOUSE, DON McGAHN, HAS
COOPERATED WITH MUELLER’S TEAM.
JEFF SESSIONS, OBVIOUSLY, STILL
RECUSED.
RECUSED. TO A CERTAIN EXTENT.
IT’S CLEAR THAT IT SEEMS AS
THOUGH THE WALLS ARE CLOSING IN,
AS SHAWNA NOTES.
SO WHAT’S -- WHAT’S NEXT HERE?
>> WELL, IF YOU DON’T HAVE A
SUBSCRIPTION TO THE "NEW YORK
TIMES."
TIMES." YOU REALLY SHOULD GET ONE.
THE STORIES ARE REALLY AMAZING.
IT REALLY WALKS THROUGH.
YOU HAVE TO REMEMBER, IT WAS
DOWD WHO HAD THIS STRATEGY WE’RE
GOING TO BE TRANSPARENT, RIGHT,
AND THAT KIND OF LED OVER INTO
WHERE McGAHN WAS AND THEN McGAHN
WAS TOLD TO FIRE JEFF SESSIONS.
HE ATTEMPTED TO DO THAT.
BUT I THINK IN THAT PROCESS HE
REALIZED THAT HE WAS PUTTING
HIMSELF AT RISK.
WHAT’S SHOCKING HERE IS IT TOOK
THIS LONG FOR US TO SEE, AND I
DON’T KNOW THE WHITE HOUSE, AND
APPARENTLY THE PRESIDENT, TO
KNOW THAT DON McGAHN WAS
COOPERATING.
COOPERATING. HE KNEW HE WAS COOPERATING.
TO WHAT EXTENT HE WAS
COOPERATING.
COOPERATING. BUT TO THE EXTENT THAT DON
McGAHN IS ACTUALLY TRYING TO,
ONE, AS SHAWNA SAID, HE
UNDERSTANDS THAT HE REPRESENTS
THE PRESIDENCY, OR -- NOT DONALD
TRUMP PERSONALLY, BUT SECOND
THAT HE COULD BE CAUGHT UP IN
ALL THIS AND IT LOOKED AS IF HE
WAS PROTECTING HIMSELF DONALD
TRUMP ACTUALLY SETTING HIM UP TO
BE THE FALL GUY.
IN OTHER WORDS, WHEN THE
PROVERBIAL HIT THE FAN, HE WAS
GOING TO BE ABLE TO SAY I GOT
ALL THIS TERRIBLE LEGAL ADVICE
FROM DON McGAHN.
>> THAT’S ESSENTIALLY WHERE THE
JOHN DEAN COMPARISON COMES FROM,
DEAN, PART OF WHAT SPURRED HIS
COOPERATION WAS HIS OWN FEAR
THAT HE WAS GOING TO BE
SCAPEGOATED.
SCAPEGOATED. DON McGAHN IS AN INTERESTING
FIGURE TO ME.
I REMEMBER, I STOOD AND WATCHED
A LOT OF TRUMP’S ANNOUNCEMENT
STANDING NEXT TO HIM IN THE
LOBBY OF TRUMP TOWER.
I WAS SURPRISED TO SEE HIM
BECAUSE HE WAS SOMEBODY WHO HAS
BEEN AROUND WASHINGTON A LONG
TIME, WORKED ON THE FEDERAL
ELECTION COMMISSION, YOU BUMP
INTO HIM AT CAP LOUNGE OR
WHEREVER WE USED TO GO WHEN WE
WERE IN OUR 20s.
BUT THERE HE WAS AT THE
ANNOUNCEMENT.
ANNOUNCEMENT. SOMETIMES PEOPLE FORGET HE WAS
KIND OF INVOLVED IN THE CAMPAIGN
AT ITS EARLIEST STAGES AND
INCARNATIONS AND HAS REALLY
BEEN, YOU KNOW, KIND OF --
SOMETIMES NOT NECESSARILY THE
CENTRAL PLAYER, BUT OFTENTIMES
IN THE ROOM.
>> YEAH, AND PEOPLE ARE --
THAT’S ONE OF THE ISSUES WITH
THE COMEY SITUATION WAS HOW MUCH
DOES DON McGAHN KNOW ABOUT WHAT
PRESIDENT TRUMP TOLD COMEY AND
THAT KIND OF THING.
BUT I ALSO THINK HE’S SOMEONE
WHO’S BEEN AROUND D.C., BUT ALSO
WAS WORKING FOR PRESIDENT TRUMP
WHEN HE WAS CANDIDATE TRUMP TO A
CERTAIN EXTENT.
CERTAIN EXTENT. HE PROBABLY ALSO HAD TO KIND OF
GROW INTO THAT JOB TOO, THE JOB
OF WHITE HOUSE COUNSEL.
HE HAD TO FIGURE OUT WHAT IT
ENTAILED.
ENTAILED. AND PROBABLY THE IDEA OF BEING
THE GUY BEHIND TRYING TO
CONVINCE JEFF SESSIONS NOT TO
RECUSE HIMSELF WAS PROBABLY
ALESSA
ALESSA LESSON FOR HIM.
JEFF SESSIONS WORKS FOR THE
AMERICAN PEOPLE AND THE
DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE.
DON McGAHN WAS PROBABLY LEARNING
ON THE JOB AND PERHAPS HE HAS
ALSO READ JOHN DEAN’S BOOK AND
HAS NOW FIGURED OUT HOW SHE
SHOULD BE HANDLING THIS.
THAT DOESN’T MEAN DON McGAHN IS
NOT DOING HIS JOB WELL AS WHITE
HOUSE COUNSEL, BUT I DO THINK IT
MEANS HE NEEDS TO FIGURE OUT HOW
THIS AFFECTS HIM PERSONALLY.