What's your immediate reaction
to the past hour and a half?
Yeah, I mean this is a
bombshell and it's a bombshell.
Not just because we've never seen a
leak like this from the Supreme Court,
where we've seen a complete, you know,
97 page draft majority opinion
out in public before the court
actually handed down its ruling.
But it's a bombshell because
of what that ruling portends.
Not just the end of a constitutional
right to abortion in this country,
but also, you know, I think.
Opening the door to the Supreme Court's
retrenchment of other unenumerated
rights of other protections that
we have come to take for granted
as a society so hard to think of
a more stunning bit of news that
could have come out of the Supreme
Court about a pending case.
Not just now, but really,
I think in the Courts's entire
history and yet here we are.
Does this put the ball in the
the legislative branches court to
make these rulings not rulings,
but make these laws now?
So I mean, I think if this
is where the court is going,
then we should stress that
this is just a draft opinion.
You know nothing is final until the Supreme
Court actually hands down its decision.
You know, yes, that would return the
question of abortion to each state.
And of course, we already know how that ends.
We know what the Texas Legislature.
It's already done and is going to do,
and so I think we would see overnight
this stunning polarization in abortion
access across this country where
abortions are still widely available,
at least for the 1st 2 trimesters in
most blue States and almost completely
unavailable in most red States and you know,
those effects are going to be
felt most harshly by those of us
who can't leave who can't travel,
who lack the resources to simply go
somewhere where abortion is legal.
If and when the procedure is needed,
it won't mean the end of abortion.
It will mean the end of legal abortion,
and it'll mean the end of safe
abortion in those jurisdictions.
And that's a pretty ominous Rd
for us to be going down.
Just a hypothetical.
Is there a possibility that the court
issues a different opinion based on
this leak and the reaction to it?
I mean, I think it's very hard to imagine
that this leak is going to somehow.
Erode the apparent majority for this
bottom line. If anything, I think
it's likely to entrench that majority,
which is part of why it's not obvious to
me that the leak is coming from the left,
as opposed to from those who might
be trying to soften the ground.
For this result,
there's no guarantee that this is what
we're going to get from the Supreme
Court when all is said and done,
we might get some kind of different opinion.
Make it a narrower opinion,
but you know if this is where we're headed,
and it certainly seems like there's
a good reason to believe it is,
that's going to just have shockwaves.
All across the country,
not just when it comes to abortion,
but when it comes to the rights of you know,
unpopular groups and unpopular
rights writ large.
This is also a question of I think
you mentioned this on on Twitter or
someone else mentioned it in some
Twitter thread that this comes down to
the trust within the Supreme Court.
The secrecy of the Supreme Court.
Can you speak to that a little
bit and kind of the the larger
picture that this hints at?
At the very least,
yeah, I mean the you know,
historically the Supreme Court has been
one of the most tightly, you know,
secretive institutions in government.
I mean, it is virtually unheard of for
a decision to leak out in advance.
We have scattershot examples historically
of maybe having an idea of what the
bottom line was going to be in a case,
maybe even the vote count,
but never a draft opinion like this,
and you know that's going to
have enormous consequences.
I think going forward,
not just for how the public
thinks about the Supreme Court,
but how the Supreme Court
itself does its job.
I mean, on the day to day basis.
This is going to,
you know, I think,
radically change the internal
mechanics within the Supreme Court,
because I think we've never seen
something like this before.
I think the justices are going to be.
Horrified and to a large degree,
you know, angry about this leak,
whether or not they were in the
majority here or in the dissent.
And so this is really a remarkably
powerful and poignant inflection point,
not just for the Supreme Court
as an institution,
but for how we as a society relate
to the Court as an institution.
There's been a concern,
at least over the past few years
that the Supreme Court is getting
very political or could be getting
very political. Does this leak?
Especially on this decision push?
I'm hesitant to say that narrative,
but does it push the Supreme Court?
To at least looking like it's more
political than it has been in the past.
I mean, I think you know when we talk
about the Supreme Court and politics,
there's high politics and there's politics.
And you know, I think there's
no question that this case.
This abortion case was always going to,
you know, really get everyone's
dander up about the Supreme Court
of the political institution.
But the leaking here, I think,
really only reinforces the low politics
of the Supreme Court as an institution
where you know the players themselves.
Whether it's the clerks or the justices
or their friends and supporters are
capitalizing on the public interest in
the public reaction to a leak like this in
an attempt to affect the Court's behavior.
While or the other,
we don't know which way,
and I think that for better or for worse,
no matter what will.
Of course, you know,
exacerbate perpetuate this narrative that
the court is a political institution,
because what this leak suggests is it is
being used as a political institution,
whether by Democrats or Republicans.
Other by the justices in the majority
of that said, we don't know,
but just the mere fact that
this is where we are.
I think there's nothing
to dispel that narrative,
and frankly,
does everything to increase
charges that the court is acting
like a political institution
and one last time.
What are the actual effects of this
decision once it is made official,
not just today or tomorrow?
So if this is where the Supreme Court
is going, if, when all of a sudden done
we get a majority decision from the
Supreme Court that overrules round Casey?
Then overnight that will return
the question of whether to protect
any abortions to the states.
Some states, like Texas,
have so-called trigger laws that would
go into effect the day after a decision
over ruling Roe and Casey that would
effectively ban abortion in the states.
Other states, like Connecticut,
have actually tried to
expand abortion access,
even for non Connecticut residents with
an eye toward this coming decision.
So you know, the day after a
ruling that gets sort of Rd Casey,
whether that's what we're getting.
Year we're going to see abortion mean
two incredibly different things into
increasingly polarized parts of this country.
That's all my questions.
Anything else you want to add?
Anything else you think
that I missed about this?
I think that covers it
all right? Well, thank you so much.
Thank you again for the last minute
doing this interview. I appreciate it.
Thanks, Mike. Have a good night.