>>> IT’S ONE OF THE SIMPLEST, MOST BASIC REMINDERS BUT A VITAL
ONE THAT BEARS REPEATING IN THE
AGE OF DONALD TRUMP, THE TRUTH
MATTERS.
MATTERS. JUDGE AMY BERMAN JACKSON MADE
SURE PAUL MANAFORT KNEW THAT,
INSISTING DURING HIS SENTENCING
YESTERDAY, QUOTE, IF PEOPLE DO
NOT HAVE THE FACTS, DEMOCRACY
CANNOT WORK.
CANNOT WORK. COURT IS ONE OF THOSE PLACES
WHERE FACTS STILL MATTERMENT
ANOTHER PLACE FACTS MATTER AND
UNPRECEDENTED HEADWIND OF THE
PRESIDENT WHO DECLARED WAR ON
THE FREE PRESS BY CALLING
JOURNALISTS ENEMY OF THE PEOPLE
IS AT "THE NEW YORK TIMES."
SHORTLY AFTER "THE NEW YORK
TIMES" PUBLISHED A STORY IN
EARLY 2016 UNDER THIS HEADLINE,
TWO WOMEN SAY DONALD TRUMP
TOUCHED THEM INAPPROPRIATELY,
THEN CANDIDATE TRUMP’S LAWYER
REACHED OUT TO DEMAND AN APOLOGY
AND THE STORY BE RETRACTED.
DEPUTY GENERAL COUNSEL’S
RESPONSE TOOK ON A LIFE OF ITS
OWN GOING VIRAL.
HIS RESPONSE, QUOTE, WE DID WHAT
THE LAW ALLOWS, WE PUBLISHED
NEWS WORTHY INFORMATION ABOUT A
SUBJECT OF DEEP PUBLIC CONCERN.
IF MR. TRUMP DISAGREES, IF HE
BELIEVES THAT AMERICAN CITIZENS
HAD NO RIGHT TO HEAR WHAT THESE
WOMEN HAD TO SAY AND THE LAW OF
THIS COUNTRY FORCES US AND WHO
WOULD DARE TO CRITICIZE HIM TO
STAND SILENT OR BE PUNISHED, WE
WELCOME THE OPPORTUNITY TO HAVE
A COURT SET HIM STRAIGHT.
JOINING US NOW AT THE TABLE, NEW
YORK DEPUTY -- "THE NEW YORK
TIMES" DEPUTY GENERAL COUNSEL
DAVID McGRAW, HIS NEW BOOK
"TRUTH IN OUR TIMES, FIGHT OF
FRESH IN THE AGE OF ALTERNATIVE
FACTS" IS OUT NOW.
WHAT MADE YOU WANT TO PUT, WHAT
I WOULD IMAGINE, HAS BEEN YOUR
DAILY EXISTENCE FOR YOUR ENTIRE
TIME AT "THE NEW YORK TIMES"
INTO A BOOK AND COME OUT AND
TALK ABOUT IT?
WHAT IS IT ABOUT THIS MOMENT?
>> IT REALLY SEEMS TO ME THE
BASIC ATTACK ON FREE PRESS TODAY
IS A HEARTS AND MIND BATTLE.
IT IS AN ATTEMPT TO -- BY THE
PRESIDENT -- TO GET PEOPLE TO
DISBELIEVE.
DISBELIEVE. 26 OF THE PEOPLE IN RECENT POLLS
SAID IF THE PRESS MISBEHAVES,
THE PRESIDENT SHOULD HAVE THE
POWER TO SHUT DOWN THAT
ORGANIZATION.
ORGANIZATION. YOU SEE A FIGURE LIKE THAT,
YOU’VE REALLY RUN OFF TRACK.
>> THAT’S THE IMPORTANT LEAP
THAT YOU SEEM TO MAKE HERE, THE
FIRST AMENDMENT, THE LEGAL
STRUCTURES AROUND THE FIRST
AMENDMENT ARE HOLDING UP JUST
FINE.
FINE. BUT OUR FAITH IN AND BELIEF IS
THE TRUTH IS SUPREME NOT SO
MUCH.
MUCH. WHAT DO WE DO?
>> YOU CAN LOOK AT THE ATTACK ON
THE PRESS AS SORT OF A BOUQUET
OF BLING AND BAD POLICY.
YOU CAN LOOK AT TURNING A PRESS
CONFERENCE INTO REALITY TV AND
VOTING SOMEBODY OFF THE ISLAND.
YOU CAN LOOK AT IT WITH THE
PRESIDENT’S ATTEMPT TO SAY THAT
THE LAW SHOULD CHANGE, COULD
LOOK AT THE CRACKDOWN BUT TOON L
BUT TO ME THE REAL PROBLEM IS
THE PRESIDENT HAS THIS BELIEF.
FAKE NEWS IS AN EVIL GENIUS, A
BIT OF POLITICAL THEATER BECAUSE
IT SOUNDS LIKE IT’S A SEARCH FOR
TRUTH WHEN IT’S JUST THE
OPPOSITE.
OPPOSITE. IT’S INVITING PEOPLE NOT TO
THINK.
THINK. IT’S INVITING PEOPLE TO LABEL.
SO I THINK THE SOLUTION REALLY
RESTS AS HARD AS IT IS, AND AS
IMPERFECT AS THIS IS, AND AS
DIFFICULT AS IT IS, WITH PEOPLE
STANDING UP FOR FREEDOM OF THE
PRESS, STANDING UP AS CITIZENS
IN A DEMOCRACY SAYING, I WANT TO
HEAR ALL POINTS OF VIEW AND I
WANT TO DISCERN, I’M NOT GOING
TO FALL INTO THIS LABELING.
AND ULTIMATELY WHETHER YOU’RE
CONSERVATIVE OR WHETHER YOU’RE
LIBERAL, WANT TO HAVE A FREE
PRESS.
PRESS. >> YOUR PUBLISHER HAS GONE INTO
THE OVAL OFFICE ON AT LEAST TWO
OCCASIONS WE KNOW ABOUT AND MADE
THE CASE CALLING JOURNALISTS
ENEMIES OF THE PEOPLE, YOU CALL
IT EVIL GENIUS, WHATEVER IT IS,
THAT MAKES DONALD TRUMP
REFLEXIVELY CALL OUT FAKE NEWS
AND ENEMY OF THE PEOPLE IS
PUTTING PEOPLE’S LIVES IN
DANGER.
DANGER. IS THIS AN ACTIVE CONVERSATION
FOR YOU GUYS AT "THE TIMES"?
DO YOU WORRY ABOUT YOUR
JOURNALISTS IN THIS COUNTRY AND
AROUND THE WORLD?
>> EVERY DAY IT IS A CONCERN.
BEFORE I CAME OVER HERE I
RECEIVED A CALL FROM A PHOTO
EDITOR WHO WANTED TO TALK ABOUT
A PHOTOGRAPHER IN JEOPARDY
ABROAD.
ABROAD. WE ARE IN A CRIMINAL
INVESTIGATION IN EGYPT FOR FAKE
NEWS.
NEWS. WE ARE BANNED FROM GOING INTO
PAKISTAN.
PAKISTAN. WE’RE BLOCKED, OUR WEBSITE IS
BLOCKED IN CHINA.
VERY DIFFICULT TO REPORT THE
NEWS.
NEWS. WHAT CONCERNS ME THOUGH IS THE
WORST GOVERNMENTS IN THE WORST
PLACE BELIEVE THEY ARE INCURRING
FAVOR WITH THE AMERICAN
PRESIDENT BY JOINING IN THAT
DENOUNCEMENT, THAT IS REALLY NOT
WHERE WE WANT TO BE.
THE STATE DEPARTMENT USED TO
PRIDE ITSELF, PRIDE ITSELF, OF
SINGING THE GOSPEL OF A FREE
PRESS TO WHAT PART OF SPREADING
DEMOCRACY WAS ABOUT.
WE NEED TO GET BACK TO THAT.
>> TWO FORMER PRESIDENTS MADE A
POINT TO SAY WHAT YOU’RE SAYING,
THE IMPORTANCE OF FREE PRESS
BETWEEN DONALD TRUMP’S ELECTION
AND INAUGURATION.
AND INAUGURATION. WHAT CAN BE DONE, WHAT VOICES
NEED TO BE ECHOING WHAT YOU’RE
SAYING TO MAKE SURE THAT -- IT
SEEMS LIKE THE COMPARISONS TO AN
AUTOCRACY ARE NOT HYPERBOLE AT
THIS MOMENT WITH WHAT YOU’RE
DESCRIBING.
DESCRIBING. >> I THINK IT’S THE PEOPLE IN
THE MIDDLE.
THE MIDDLE. I THINK IT’S CONSCIENTIOUS
CONSERVATIVES, CONSCIENTIOUS
CONSERVATIVES, CONSCIENTIOUS LIBERALS AND MODERATES.
THE PEOPLE ON THE EXTREMES ARE
NEVER GOING TO SEE EYE TO EYE ON
THIS BUT WE NEED THE PEOPLE IN
THE MIDDLE TO MOVE.
I GREW UP IN A VERY SMALL TOWN
IN ILLINOIS, MY PARENTS WERE
CONSERVATIVE, BOTH VETERANS.
WHEN YOU GROW UP IN ILLINOIS
WHEN I DID, ONE THING IS TRUE,
THE GOVERNOR IS RIPPING YOU OFF.
THE GOVERNORS THAT WERE IN POWER
WHEN I WAS A KID WENT TO JAIL.
THE SECRETARY OF STATE WAS FOUND
WITH SHOE BOXES OF MONEY WHEN HE
DIED IN HIS OFFICE.
THE LESSON WAS YOU CAN’T TRUST
GOVERNMENT, THAT’S WHY THE FREE
PRESS IS SO IMPORTANT.
I DON’T KNOW WHERE THAT FELL OUT
OF THE CONSERVATIVE CHART.
>> I SPENT TIME IN THE CITY OF
CHICAGO AND STATE OF ILLINOIS,
IT’S USUALLY JOURNALISTS WHO ARE
UNCOVERING THAT RIGGED SYSTEM
FOR THE CITIZENS.
ONE THING I’VE HEARD THROUGH
MULTIPLE ANONYMOUS SOURCES THAT
YOU DO DURING THE DAY IS KEEP
REPORTERS OUT OF JAIL.
ONE OF THEM IS HERE AT THIS
JAIL.
JAIL. WOULD YOU LIKE TO JUMP IN?
>> I WOULD BE HAPPY TO JUMP IN.
WE’VE KNOWN EACH OTHER PROBABLY
20 YEARS AT THIS POINT AND IT’S
ONE OF THE GREAT PROFESSIONAL
PRIVILEGES AND HONOR OF MY LIFE
TO HAVE WORKED WITH DAVID.
I SPEAK ON BEHALF OF LEGIONS OF
REPORTERS AT "THE NEW YORK
TIMES" WHO KNOW WHEN YOU’RE ON
THE HIGH-WIRE DOING
INVESTIGATIVE WORK, WORKING IN
DIFFICULT OVERSEAS ENVIRONMENTS,
TAKING ON POWERFUL PEOPLE WITH
DEEP RESOURCES, YOU’RE REASSURED
BY DAVID’S PRESENCE.
HE IS UNDERSTOOD IN "THE NEW
YORK TIMES" NEWSROOM TO BE A
LEGACY ALLY, SOMEONE WHO COMES
TO BAT --
TO BAT -- >> THAT’S SO NICE!
GIVE ME SOME DIRT.
WHAT DID YOU GET IN TROUBLE FOR,
AND HOW DID HE GET YOU OUT OF
IT?
IT? >> YOU WANT THE DIRT.
YOU WANT THE DIRT.
I GOT SUED FOR A BOOK I WROTE
ABOUT DONALD TRUMP.
DAVID HAD THE FORTUNE OF BEING
THE GENERAL COUNSEL OF "THE NEW
YORK TIMES" AT THE TIME.
TRUMP RATTLED THE CAGE FOR A
BUNCH OF STORIES I WROTE BEFORE
THE BOOK, BEFORE I ENGAGED WITH
THE BOOK AND DAVID HAD TO FEND
THOSE OFF, NASTY LETTERS, I’M
GOING TO SUE YOU, LA, LA, LA.
VERY SIMILAR TO THE LETTERS HE
WROTE DURING THE PRESIDENTIAL
CAMPAIGN.
CAMPAIGN. WHEN TRUMP SUED ME, HE
STRATEGICALLY AVOIDED SUING "THE
NEW YORK TIMES."
HE SUED MY BOOK PUBLISHER AND ME
BECAUSE I THINK HE KNEW I WOULD
GET DRAFD FORAVID FOR FREE.
NONE THE THES THEY GOT ACCESS TO
THE HARD DRIVE OF MY COMPUTER.
THEY MIRRORED THE HARD DRIVE.
DAVID AND I HAD TO GO THROUGH
EVERYTHING ON THE HARD DRIVE
TOGETHER AND DECIDE WHAT TO TURN
OVER TO DONALD TRUMP.
HE HAD LAWYERS COMING IN ALL THE
TIME.
TIME. AND AT ONE POINT I THINK HE
FINALLY SAID TO HIS OWN
ATTORNEYS, ONE DAY HE COULD
RETAIN DAVID McCRAW BECAUSE HE
REALIZED HE BEEN OUTCLASSED.
>> DAVID, CAN I ASK YOU A
QUESTION, I WAS A JOURNALIST ALL
OF MY LIFE AND STATE DEPARTMENT
DURING THE CAMPAIGN, AND ONE OF
THE THINGS THAT DISTRESSED ME
AND AMAZED ME IS HOW LITTLE THE
AMERICAN PEOPLE KNEW ABOUT HOW
JOURNALISM WORKS, HOW REPORTERS
CHECK THEIR SOURCES.
THERE ARE LAWYERS LIKE YOU, AND
THE REASON THAT THE CURRENT
STATE OF FAKE NEWS CAN TAKE OFF
IS THE LACK OF KNOWLEDGE OF
PEOPLE IN THE REPUBLIC.
I WOULD ARGUE -- AND WOULD I
LIKE TO HEAR WHAT YOU THINK
ABOUT IT -- JOURNALISMS AND "THE
NEW YORK TIMES" IN PARTICULAR
HAS TO BE MORE TRANSPARENT ABOUT
HOW IT WORKS.
SHOWING SOURCES, LETTING PEOPLE
READ TRANSCRIPTS.
READ TRANSCRIPTS. OPENING UP THE PROCESS SO PEOPLE
SEE HOW MUCH WORK GOES INTO
EVERY STORY AND WHY THEY SHOULD
BE ABLE TO TRUST IT.
WHAT DO YOU THINK OF THAT?
>> I COULDN’T AGREE MORE.
BUT I THINK "THE TIMES" HAS DONE
THAT.
THAT. IF YOU LOOK AT THE DOCUMENTARY
ON TV THAT WAS DONE, YOU GOT TO
SEE INSIDE HOW THE WASHINGTON
COVERAGE WORKED.
COVERAGE WORKED. I THINK THAT’S IMPORTANT.
PEOPLE ARE UNCOMFORTABLE.
IT’S NOT NATURAL AS YOU’RE
SAYING.
SAYING. JOURNALISTS ARE USED TO WORKING
BEHIND CLOSED DOORS AND LETTING
THEIR WORK SPEAK THROUGH THE
PAPER OR ON THE AIR.
MY BOOK I THINK IS PART OF THAT.
SOMEBODY FROM "THE WASHINGTON
POST" -- I WAS ON A PANEL WITH
THE OTHER DAY SAID THE GREAT
THING ABOUT THIS BOOK IS IT
SHOWS HOW HARD THE WORK IS.
YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT "THE
TIMES" DOES, BUT YOU’RE NEVER
GOING TO COME AWAY SAYING OH,
THEY’RE JUST SITTING AROUND
MAKING IT UP.
THAT’S NOT HAPPENING.
>> IT’S A MIRACLE IT COMES OUT
EACH DAY.
EACH DAY. >> LET ME BRING ASHLEY PARKER IN
ON THAT.
ON THAT. ASHLEY PARKER, YOU’RE FAMOUS FOR
THESE STORIES WHERE SOMEONE IN
THE SECOND OR THIRD PARAGRAPH
YOUR COLLEAGUES RIGHTWRITE THIS
BASED ON INTERVIEWS WITH 17
PEOPLE.
PEOPLE. DO YOU SHARE THIS FRUSTRATION
THAT IT’S NOT ALWAYS EASY TO
SHOW YOUR WORK TO THE SKEPTICAL
READER?
READER? OR DO YOU COME DOWN ON THE SIDE
THAT DAVID’S ON, THAT FAKE NEWS,
THE EVIL GENIUS OF THAT, HAS
CONVINCED SOME PEOPLE THAT IN
SOME CORNERS THERE IS NO TRUTH?
>> ONE OF THE REASONS YOU
MENTIONED THAT LINE OF HOW MANY
PEOPLE WE TALK TO, WE DO THAT
FOR A COUPLE OF REASONS BUT ONE
IS TO SIGNAL TO OUR READERS,
ESPECIALLY IN THIS WHITE HOUSE,
THAT THIS ISN’T THE VIEW OF JUST
ONE DISGRUNTLED AIDE OR
ESPECIALLY EARLY ON WHEN YOU HAD
ALL OF THESE WARRING FACTIONS,
THIS ISN’T JUST WITH THE BANNON
RING OR RIGHT WING IS SPINNING.
THIS IS A FULL PORTRAIT OF 31
PEOPLE WE SPOKE TO AND THE OTHER
REASON, MAIN REASON WE DO IT IS
BECAUSE AS DAVID SAID, AND
EVERYONE WHO REITERATED, WE’RE
TRYING TO DO THE BEST JOB
POSSIBLE AND GET AT THE TRUTH.
IF THE WAY YOU GET AT THE TRUTH
AND WAY YOU HAVE THE MOST
ACCURATE PICTURE OF WHAT
HAPPENED IN AN OVAL OFFICE
MEETING OR WHY THE SUMMIT IN
HANOI FELL APART IS CALLING 31
PEOPLE, GETTING ALL OF THEIR
VIEWS AND TAKING IT AS A
KALEIDOSCOPE AND PRESENTING THAT
TRUTH IN REALITY TO THE READER,
THEN THAT’S HOW WE’RE GOING TO
DO IT.
DO IT. >> LAST WORD, DO YOU COME DOWN
ON THE SIDE OF BEING MORE
OPTIMISTIC OR PESSIMISTIC AND
CONCERNED ABOUT THE FUTURE OF
JOURNALISM?
JOURNALISM? >> NICOLLE, MY BOOK IS A TRIBUTE
TO OPTIMISM TO PROVE WRONG.
I WILL BE OPTIMISTIC AGAIN AND
SAY, WE’RE GOING TO GET THROUGH
THIS.
THIS. >> ALL RIGHT.
THAT’S PERFECT WAY TO END, "THE
BOOK, TRUTH AND OUR TIMES" IS
GREAT.
GREAT. CONGRATULATIONS, THANK YOU.
I HOPE YOU ACHIEVED THE GOAL