>>> WHAT DOES IT MEAN WHEN YOUR LAWYER NEEDS A LAWYER?
IT’S USUALLY A BAD SIGN.
THAT WAS TRUE FOR MICHAEL COHEN
WHOSE LEGAL WORK FOR PRESIDENT
TRUMP WAS INTERRUPTED BY HIS OWN
INDICTMENT.
INDICTMENT. HE’S NOW SERVING TIME ON A RANGE
OF OFFENSES INCLUDING PAYMENTS
HE SAYS HE ARRANGED FOR HIS
CLIENT, DONALD TRUMP.
COHEN VACATING HIS WORK AS A
PERSONAL LAWYER AND
SELF-DECLARED FIXER LEFT A HOLE
FILLED BY SEVERAL LAWYERS AND
FILLED MOST LOUDLY BY RUDY
GIULIANI, WHO IS UNDER CRIMINAL
INVESTIGATION BY THE SAME OFFICE
THAT, ONE, INDICTED COHEN, AND,
TWO, WAS ONCE RUN BY RUDY
GIULIANI.
GIULIANI. SO WE’VE GOT PEOPLE HERE WHO ARE
IN THE THICK OF IT.
WHEN COHEN WAS UNDER PRESSURE,
THE LAWYER WHO PRECEDED HIM AS
TRUMP’S LAWYER, JAY GOLDBERG,
CORRECTLY PREDICTED THAT COHEN
WOULD FLIP ON TRUMP.
SAYING HE WARNED PRESIDENT TRUMP
MICHAEL WILL NEVER STAND UP FOR
YOU.
YOU. GOLDBERG REPRESENTED TRUMP FOR
15 YEARS, A FORMER PROSECUTOR
HIMSELF.
HIMSELF. HE KNEW THE SYSTEM AND COHEN.
AND RIGHT HERE ON "THE BEAT" HE
EXPLAINED HIS VIEW OF THAT
LAWYER.
LAWYER. >> IF YOU SPEND FIVE MINUTES
WITH MICHAEL COHEN, YOU KNOW
THAT HE’S NOT STRONG, HE’S WEAK.
THAT HE WOULD CAVE IN WITH
RESPECT TO ANY WRONGDOING.
>> CAVE IN.
WELL, COHEN DID COOPERATE WITH
THE FEDS.
THE FEDS. TONIGHT GUILIANI HAS BEEN
INSISTING HE HASN’T HEARD FROM
PROSECUTORS AND THIS WEEK HE’S
BEEN DEFYING A SUBPOENA FROM
CONGRESS.
CONGRESS. SEVERAL TRUMP LAWYERS FIND
THEMSELVES NOT ONLY DEFENDING
THEIR CLIENT BUT SOMETIMES
DEFENDING THEMSELVES.
DEFENDING THEMSELVES. WILL GUILIANI FOLLOW THE COHEN
PATH OR WILL HE ULTIMATELY BEAT
ANY POTENTIAL CASE AND EMERGE
TRIUMPHANT?
TRIUMPHANT? JOINING ME NOW IS FORMER FEDERAL
PROSECUTOR AND ATTORNEY FOR
TRUMP FOR OVER A DECADE, JAY
GOLDBERG.
GOLDBERG. HE’S THE AUTHOR OF "THE
COURTROOM IS MY THEATER" AND HE
KNOWS THESE ISSUES WELL.
I’M ALSO JOINED BY MSNBC LEGAL
ANALYST DANNY CEVALLOS.
THANKS TO BOTH OF YOU FOR BEING
HERE.
HERE. >> THANKS FOR HAVING US.
>> JAY, YOU’VE WORKED FOR
PRESIDENT TRUMP IN PRIVATE
PRACTICE.
PRACTICE. YOU KNOW COHEN, YOU KNOW
GUILIANI.
GUILIANI. WHEN YOU SEE RUDY GIULIANI HERE
TODAY, WHAT DO YOU THINK OF THE
JOB HE’S DOING?
>> WELL, I THINK HE’S GONE OFF
THE RAILS.
THE RAILS. JOHN BOLTON TODAY SAID THAT
GUILIANI IS LIKE A HAND GRENADE.
AND IT’S A SHAME BECAUSE HIS
BACKGROUND IS EXTRAORDINARY.
BUT SOMEHOW HE GOT SEDUCED INTO
THE LIKELIHOOD OF HIGH PUBLICITY
AND HE LOST HIS SENSE OF
BALANCE.
BALANCE. >> BASED ON WHAT IS PUBLICLY
KNOWN, DO YOU THINK GUILIANI HAS
LEGAL LIABILITY?
LEGAL LIABILITY? >> I THINK HE WILL HAVE LEGAL
LIABILITY.
LIABILITY. LET ME SAY THIS TO YOU.
IT WAS IN MARCH WHEN TRUMP
CALLED ME AND ASKED ME WHETHER
IT WAS GOOD FOR HIM TO HIRE AND
RETAIN GUILIANI AS HIS LAWYER.
I SAID DESPITE HIS BACKGROUND,
WHICH WAS EXTRAORDINARILY GOOD,
GUILIANI WOULD NOT MAKE A GOOD
DEFENSE TYPE LAWYER.
>> WHILE DONALD TRUMP WAS
PRESIDENT, YOU TOLD HIM NOT TO
HIRE GUILIANI FOR THIS ROLE?
>> NOT TO HIRE GUILIANI.
>> AND WHAT WAS YOUR REASON?
>> HE HAD SPENT TOO MUCH TIME AS
A PROSECUTOR.
A PROSECUTOR. PROSECUTORS CAN GENERALLY GO
OUTSIDE THE LINE AND THERE’S
NOBODY TO CORRECT THEM.
HE WOULDN’T BE CAREFUL
DEFENSIVELY TO SEE THAT DONALD
WAS PROTECTED.
WAS PROTECTED. >> DO YOU THINK BECAUSE SOME
PROSECUTORS ARE SO USED TO BEING
IN CHARGE THEY LOSE THE SKILLS
THAT YOU NEED TO HAVE WHEN
YOU’RE NOT IN CHARGE?
>> ABSOLUTELY.
>> ABSOLUTELY. YOU NEED THE SKILLS THAT THE MAN
TO MY LEFT, DANNY, HAS AS A
DEFENSE LAWYER.
DEFENSE LAWYER. AND A DEFENSE LAWYER PLAYS
THINGS WITH THE POSSIBILITY THAT
IT MIGHT COME OUT LATER ON.
>> NOW, I WANT TO BE CLEAR ABOUT
YOUR EXPERTISE, JAY, BOTH AS A
FEDERAL PROSECUTOR AND SOMEONE
WHO WORKED FOR DONALD TRUMP.
YOU KNOW MICHAEL COHEN.
>> THAT’S VERY INTERESTING.
IN THE 15 YEARS THAT I WORKED
FOR TRUMP FROM MY OWN OFFICE, I
NEVER MET MICHAEL COHEN.
WHATEVER DEALINGS HE HAD WITH
MICHAEL COHEN WOULD BE WHEN HE
SANK INTO THE WELL OF THE DESK
AND HAD CONVERSATIONS WITH
PEOPLE OR A PERSON THAT I DIDN’T
KNOW.
KNOW. BUT HE INSULATED ME APPARENTLY
FROM ANY EXPOSURE BECAUSE HE
KNEW THAT I WOULDN’T DO ANYTHING
INAPPROPRIATE.
INAPPROPRIATE. >> AND WHAT ABOUT THAT
ARRANGEMENT REGARDING GUILIANI?
HAVE YOU STAYED AWAY FROM WHAT
HE’S DOING?
HE’S DOING? >> NO.
>> NO. I THINK GUILIANI HAS BEEN
SEDUCED BY MAR-A-LAGO, THE
LIFESTYLE.
LIFESTYLE. IT’S VERY HEADY TO BE ON THE
PLANE, GOLD-PLATED.
PLANE, GOLD-PLATED. IT’S ONCE IN A LIFETIME TO
SOMEBODY WHO’S DEALT IN THE
TRENCHES.
TRENCHES. ROOTING OUT THE MOB.
>> AND YOU KNOW MORE ABOUT THIS
THAN MOST PEOPLE.
DOES RUDY GIULIANI HAVE ANY
EVIDENCE OR RECORDS THAT COULD
RESOLVE WHAT HE WAS DOING WITH
UKRAINE?
UKRAINE? >> YES.
>> YES. THERE’S A BOOK THAT HE KEPT OF
ALL THE CONTACTS THAT HE MADE
WHILE IN THE UKRAINE.
IT HASN’T BEEN SUBPOENAED THUS
FAR.
FAR. IT HASN’T COME TO LIGHT.
AND I TELL YOU THAT IF THE
SUBPOENA IS ISSUED FOR THAT BOOK
THAT HE PREPARED, IT WILL BE TO
THE DETRIMENT OF DONALD UNDER AN
AGENCY KIND OF CONCEPT THAT
DONALD WILL BE RESPONSIBLE FOR
ALL THE THINGS THAT HE DID AND
GUILIANI DID A LOT OF THE THINGS
THAT HE’S USED TO DOING WHILE HE
WAS A PROSECUTOR.
HE WAS A VERY HARD-DRIVING
PROSECUTOR.
PROSECUTOR. >> RUDY GIULIANI PREPARED THIS
BOOK YOU SAY?
>> YES.
>> YES. >> HAVE YOU SEEN IT?
>> I’VE SEEN THE BOOK.
>> IF YOU SAY THERE’S THIS BOOK
AND YOU’VE SEEN IT AND NOW
YOU’RE MENTIONING IT ON AIR --
>> YES.
>> YES. >> THE LOGICAL RESULT IS THAT IT
MAY BE SUBPOENAED.
>> THEY MAY.
I DON’T THINK THERE’S ENOUGH TO
IMPEACH TRUMP AND CERTAINLY NOT
TO CONVICT HIM.
>> BUT YOU DO THINK THERE ARE
THINGS HERE THAT MIGHT MAKE IT
LOOK LIKE RUDY GIULIANI BROKE
THE LAW?
THE LAW? >> WELL, RUDY GIULIANI LIKES TO
KEEP A LOG OF THE THINGS THAT
HE’S DOING BECAUSE HE WANTS TO
SHOW IT TO THE CLIENT.
>> LET ME BRING DANNY --
>> ONE LAST THING.
>> LET ME BRING DANNY AND THEN
I’LL COME BACK TO YOU.
DANNY, THIS LONG-TIME LAWYER FOR
DONALD TRUMP IS TALKING ABOUT
ANOTHER LAWYER FOR DONALD TRUMP
WHO’S UNDER INVESTIGATION AND
FIGHTING CONGRESSIONAL
FIGHTING CONGRESSIONAL SUBPOENAS.
SUBPOENAS. YOUR REACTION TO WHAT MR.
GOLDBERG IS SAYING THAT THERE IS
THIS RECORD BOOK, THAT IT
EXISTS, THAT HE’S SEEN IT AND
THAT IT MIGHT HAVE MORE
EVIDENCE.
EVIDENCE. >> IT WOULD BE VERY DIFFICULT TO
KEEP THIS BOOK FROM DISCLOSURE
PURSUANT TO SUBPOENA, BECAUSE
THE FIRST QUESTION IS WHAT IS
THE PURPOSE OF THIS BOOK.
IF IT’S NOT FOR THE PURPOSE OF
PROVIDING LEGAL ADVICE AND
SERVICES AND IF IT’S NOT
ATTORNEY WORK PRODUCT, THEN
PRIVILEGE IS LARGELY DISSIPATED.
WHAT EXACTLY IS RUDY GIULIANI’S
STATUS?
STATUS? WHO’S HE WORKING ON BEHALF OF?
IS HE A LAWYER?
>> IS HE A LAWYER OR IS HE AN
AGENT?
AGENT? HE MIGHT BE A CONSULTANT, A
CONTRACTOR APPARENTLY PRO BONO.
FOR BOTH OF YOU, DONALD TRUMP
HAS TALKED A LOT ABOUT THE IDEA
THAT IF SOMEONE ELSE DOES
SOMETHING FOR HIM, HE’S NOT
RESPONSIBLE.
RESPONSIBLE. AND IF THEY GIVE HIM A VIEW,
RIGHT OR WRONG, HE RELIES ON IT.
THERE IS A CONCEPT CALLED
RELIANCE, ALTHOUGH IT HAS A
BREAKING POINT.
BREAKING POINT. HERE’S THE PRESIDENT MAKING THAT
ARGUMENT.
ARGUMENT. >> REMEMBER THIS, HE’S AN
ATTORNEY.
ATTORNEY. WHATEVER DECISION HE MAKES,
YOU’RE SUPPOSED TO RELY ON AN
ATTORNEY TO MAKE A DECISION.
WHEN YOU HAVE AN ATTORNEY,
YOU’RE SUPPOSED TO BE ABLE TO
RELY ON YOUR ATTORNEY.
>> ATTORNEY/CLIENT PRIVILEGE?
>> BUT IT’S ALSO CALLED
RELIANCE.
RELIANCE. >> JAY, IS THERE A RELIANCE
DEFENSE?
DEFENSE? CAN DONALD TRUMP INSULATE
HIMSELF?
HIMSELF? OR DO YOU THINK GUILIANI HAS
ACTED IN A WAY THAT CAN PUT TOO
MUCH ON TRUMP?
>> I DON’T THINK DONALD WOULD
SUFFER ANY ADVERSE CONSEQUENCE
AT THIS TIME.
HE COULD BE NAMED AS AN
UNINDICTED CO-CONSPIRATOR IN ANY
CRIMINAL ACTIVITY OF GUILIANI.
BUT KEEP IN MIND THAT WHEN YOU
DEAL WITH ATTORNEY/CLIENT
PRIVILEGE, IT’S DONALD’S
PRIVILEGE.
PRIVILEGE. >> SURE.
>> SURE. >> IT’S NOT RUDY’S PRIVILEGE.
>> AND WE’RE SHORT ON TIME WITH
ALL THE NEWS.
THE LAST QUESTION FOR YOU, JAY,
GIVEN YOUR INTEREST, DO YOU
THINK THAT DONALD TRUMP SHOULD
END THIS WORK RELATIONSHIP WITH
GUILIANI?
GUILIANI? >> I DO THINK SO.
I THINK IT’S TIME.
I SAID THAT IN MARCH OF 2018.
>> AND YOU THINK THAT EVEN MORE
SO TODAY?
SO TODAY? >> YES.
>> YES. >> DANNY?
>> DANNY? >> IT SEEMS LIKE GUILIANI IS
BECOMING A LIABILITY FOR DONALD
TRUMP SO IT MAY BE TIME TO
ENDING THE ATTORNEY/CLIENT
RELATIONSHIP AND SEEK ASSISTANCE
ELSEWHERE.
ELSEWHERE. >> VERY INTERESTING AND I THINK
YOU MADE SOME NEWS HERE TONIGHT,
JAY, AND YOU’RE CLOSE TO A LOT