>>> SO MORE NOW ON THE DEADLY STANDOFF IN OHIO AFTER POLICE
SAY A MAN ARD WITH AN AR-15-STYLE WEAPON TRIED TO
ENTER THE FBI CINCINNATI'S FIELD OFFICE.
ON SOCIAL MEDIA ACCOUNTS BEARING THE MAN'S NAME INCLUDE
POLITICALLY VIOLENT POSTS ENCOURAGING PEOPLE TO GO TO GUN
AND PAWNSHOPS TO, QUOTE, GET WHATEVER YOU NEED TO BE READY
FOR COMBAT. WITH US NOW CNN SENIOR LAW
ENFORCEMENT ANALYST AND FORMER DEPUTY DIRECTOR OF THE FBI
ANDREW McCABE AND PHIL MUDD IS BACK WITH US AS WELL.
ANDY, I JUST WANT TO START WITH YOU.
AGAIN, WE'RE STILL LEARNING MORE ABOUT WHAT HAPPENED IN OHIO, BUT
THERE ARE THESE POSSIBLE LINKS TO EVERYTHING ELSE THAT HAS
HAPPENED THIS WEEK. YOUR VIEW.
>> JOHN, IT'S JUST SUCH AN INCREDIBLY POTENT EXAMPLE OF THE
STATE OF THE THREAT IN THIS COUNTRY RIGHT NOW AND HOW EASILY
THAT THREAT OF POLITICAL VIOLENCE CAN BE ACCESSED BY
DONALD TRUMP AND DIRECTED BY HIM.
AND I THINK THAT'S WHAT WE SAW YESTERDAY.
ASSUMING THE INVESTIGATION BEARS OUT THAT THIS INDIVIDUAL'S
MOTIVE WAS, IN FACT, TO ATTACK THE FBI, HE MADE STATEMENTS
IMMEDIATELY FOLLOWING THE SEARCH WARRANT AT MAR-A-LAGO ON MONDAY.
SO, THIS IS WHAT COUNTERTERRORISM EXPERTS AND
OBSERVERS AND FOLKS LIKE MYSELF HAVE BEEN TALKING ABOUT FOR
MONTHS. DONALD TRUMP HAS AN AMAZING
AMOUNT OF INFLUENCE OVER PEOPLE WHO HARBOR THESE SORTS OF
BELIEFS WHEN HE BASELESSLY FLOATS OUT AN ALLEGATION, AS HE
DID ON MONDAY, ABOUT THE FBI POSSIBLY PLANTING EVIDENCE IN
HIS RESIDENCE, WHICH WE ALL KNOW THERE'S BEEN ABSOLUTELY ZERO
PROOF PRODUCED FOR THAT. HE KNOWS THAT THAT COULD HAVE
AN -- THAT CAN HAVE INCREDIBLY INSPIRING EFFECT ON PEOPLE WHO
HARBOR THESE EXTREME BELIEFS AND COMPEL THEM TO MOVE TO TAKE
VIOLENT ACTION. IT IS INCREDIBLY DANGEROUS.
>> PHIL, HE IS NOT THE ONLY ONE, RIGHT?
ALL OF THIS GETS AMPLIFIED. YOU HEAR PEOPLE WHO SUPPORT HIM,
ELECTED OFFICIALS THE KIND OF RHETORIC THAT THEY'RE USING.
WHAT ARE YOUR CONCERNS? WHAT'S YOUR MESSAGE TO
REPUBLICANS WHO ARE, AS THEY COMPLAIN ABOUT THE WEAPONIZATION
OF THE DOJ AND THE FBI ARE IN A WAY WEAPONIZING THAT RHETORIC.
>> MY MESSAGE IS PROFESSIONAL AND INTENSELY PERSONAL AND THE
PROFESSIONAL PIECE, LET ME FOCUS ON RADICALIZATION, WHETHER
YOU'RE DEALING WITH ISIS OR AL QAEDA, DURING THE DAYS OF
ISLAMIC TERRORISM, ISIS AND AL QAEDA, YOU NEEDED RADICALIZERS.
IF AN INDIVIDUAL WANTS TO COMMIT AN ACT OF VIOLENCE, OFTEN
THERE'S A CASE OF SOMEONE THEY RESPECT WHO WILL VALIDATE THAT
PERSON'S FEELING. YOU'RE 18, YOU'RE 20, YOU'RE 25,
YOU'RE 30 ANGRY ABOUT AMERICA, I'M TELLING YOU AS A RESPECTED
FIGURE YOU CAN USE VIOLENCE. WE'RE SEEING THAT FROM THE
FRINGE TO A CORE MOVEMENT AMONG FAR RIGHT CONSERVATIVES TELLING
PEOPLE THAT IT MAY BE APPROPRIATE TO USE VIOLENCE FOR
POLITICAL PURPOSES. SO THIS IS ABOUT RADICALIZATION
THAT YOU WOULD SEE IN A LOT OF TERROR CIRCUMSTANCES THAT I
WITNESSED. LET ME CLOSE QUICKLY ON A
PERSONAL NOTE. THIS MORNING I WOKE UP HAVING
RECEIVED THE MOST VICIOUS PIECE OF PERSONAL HATE MAIL I HAVE
RECEIVED IN YEARS. IT APPEARS FROM MY READING OF
THIS HATE MAIL THAT IT RESULTS FROM SOMEONE WHO WAS RADICALIZED
BY WHAT THEY SAW US SAY, INCLUDING ME, IN RESPONSE TO
WHAT HAPPENED IN MAR-A-LAGO AND WHAT THAT PERSON IS SEEING THEIR
POLITICAL LEADERS SAY. IF YOU THINK THIS ISN'T
SIGNIFICANT IN AMERICA, IT'S ACROSS OUR COUNTRY.
AND IT IS COMPREHENSIVE, BRIANNA.
WHEN PEOPLE TELL SOMEONE TO BE RADICALIZED, PEOPLE WILL
RADICALIZE. >> THIS NOTE THREATENED YOU,
YOUR LIFE, PHIL? >> I GET A LOT OF HATE MAIL.
THIS IS BORDERLINE CRIMINAL REFERRAL.
I WILL NOT REFER IT. BUT THIS INDIVIDUAL TOLD ME I
NEED TO BE SMACKED AROUND AND THAT I'M THE SCUM OF THE EARTH.
I WILL NOT GET INTO THE ADDITIONAL PIECES OF THIS.
I GET THIS KIND OF STUFF PRETTY REGULARLY, BUT THIS IS MORE
SIGNIFICANT THAN WHAT I HAVE RECEIVED IN A WHILE.
AGAIN, FIRST QUESTION WAS WHETHER IT GOES TO POLICE.
IT WON'T BECAUSE IT DOESN'T HAVE SOME SPECIFICS I LOOK FOR, BUT
MAN, THIS IS EMBLEMATIC OF WHAT WE HAVE IN THIS COUNTRY, JOHN.
>> ANDY, HOW MUCH RISK IN THIS ENVIRONMENT DO YOU FEEL THAT FBI
PERSONNEL AND OTHER LAW ENFORCEMENT PERSONNEL ARE THIS
WEEK? >> WELL, JOHN, THERE'S NO
QUESTION THAT THE WORK ENVIRONMENT FOR FBI PEOPLE HAS
BEEN GETTING TOUGHER AND TOUGHER.
TOUGHER OVER THE LAST FIVE OR SIX YEARS, RIGHT?
SO, YOU KNOW, TRUMP HAS BEEN BASICALLY AT WAR WITH THE FBI
SINCE WE OPENED A CASE ON HIS CAMPAIGN IN JULY OF 2016.
THAT HAS A CORROSIVE EFFECT ON THE ABILITY OF FBI AGENTS AND
PROFESSIONAL SUPPORT STAFF TO DEVELOP THE SORT OF TRUST THAT
THEY NEED TO GET THEIR JOB DONE. NOW WE'VE GONE ONE GIANT STEP
FURTHER THAN THAT. YOU HAVE PEOPLE LIKE THIS PERSON
FROM CINCINNATI YESTERDAY ONLINE TALKING ABOUT ACTIVELY TARGETING
FBI AGENTS AS THEY CONDUCT THEIR WORK IN FIELD, AS THEY'RE OUT IN
ALL OF OUR COMMUNITIES TALKING TO VICTIMS, TALKING TO
WITNESSES. YOU HAVE THOUSANDS OF FBI PEOPLE
OUT ACROSS THE COUNTRY EVERY SINGLE DAY DOING THIS VITAL AND
IMPORTANT WORK. AND NOW TO KNOW THAT THERE MAY
BE A CORE ELEMENT OF EXTREMISTS REALLY ANYWHERE IN THE COUNTRY
TARGETING THEM IS INCREDIBLY, INCREDIBLY DANGEROUS.
AND COULD I JUST ADD TO ADDRESS BRIANNA'S QUESTION, MY QUESTION
FOR OUR POLITICAL LEADERSHIP OF BOTH SIDES IS WHERE ARE YOU?
IT'S BAD ENOUGH THAT THEIR OWN RHETORIC IS PUSHING SOME OF
THESE EXTREMISTS IN THAT DIRECTION.
THEY SHOULD BE OUT ACTIVELY TRYING TO TAMP THIS DOWN.
THEY SHOULD BE MAKING STATEMENTS ABOUT RESPONSIBILITY, ABOUT TRUE
PATRIOTISM, NO MATTER HOW THEY FEEL ABOUT WHATEVER
INVESTIGATION THEY'RE FIRED UP ABOUT.
THERE'S NO -- ABSOLUTELY NO EXCUSE FOR THIS SORT OF
PROVOCATION TO VIOLENCE. THEY SHOULD ALL BE OUT TRYING TO
TAMP THIS DOWN. >> ANDY McCABE, PHIL MUDD, OUR
THANKS TO BOTH OF YOU FOR THE WORK THAT YOU DO.
JOIN US IS ARIA AND JOAN. JOAN, YOU HEAR THIS STORY THAT
WE'RE TALKING ABOUT HERE OUT OF OHIO.
DO YOU SEE THIS AS A ONE OFF? OR DO YOU SEE THIS AS PART OF A
BROADER RADICALIZATION THAT YOU SEE DOTS CONNECTED TO THE
RHETORIC THAT YOU'RE STUDYING? >> YEAH.
SO, THERE'S A FEW THINGS GOING ON HERE I THINK IN SOCIAL MEDIA
WE HAVE TO ADDRESS. ONE OF THEM HAS TO DO CENTRALLY
WITH THE WAY IN WHICH PEOPLE ARE POSTING ONLINE, ENCOURAGING ONE
ANOTHER. THERE'S A LOT OF OVERT CALLS TO
VIOLENCE, JUST LIKE YOU ADDRESSED.
AND WHAT WE HAVE SEEN OVER THE YEARS IS WHEN VIOLENT RHETORIC
ISN'T TAKEN DOWN AND CONTENT ISN'T MODERATED THAT WE SEE THIS
WIRES TO THE WEEDS EFFECT WHERE PEOPLE WILL EVENTUALLY COMMIT
THOSE VIOLENT ACTS. WE HAVE SEEN IT WITH MESSAGE
BOARDS SUCH AS STORM FRONT WHERE NEO-NAZIS USED TO GATHER OR
STILL DO. AND NOW WE HAVE TO START LOOKING
MUCH MORE DEEPLY INTO TRUTH SOCIAL.
I THINK ON THE -- IF THERE IS A BRIGHT SIDE TO THIS, THIS
DOESN'T SEEM TO BE ORGANIZED IN THE SAME WAY THAT WE HAVE SEEN
OTHER KINDS OF VIOLENCE LIKE JANUARY 6th.
AND SO, IN A SENSE, SHIFFER IS BY NO MEANS A LONE WOLF, BUT
THIS WASN'T AN ORGANIZED ATTACK. IT DOESN'T SEEM TO BE THAT
THERE'S EVIDENCE THAT HE WAS PART OF A MILITIA OR OTHER
GROUPS AT THIS STAGE. AND SO, WE DO HAVE TO LOOK MUCH
DEEPER AT THE DATA IN THIS CASE. BUT UNFORTUNATELY MANY OF THE
SIGNS THAT WE HAVE SEEN BEFORE WHERE SOMEONE POSTS ABOUT A
VIOLENT ACTIVITY AND THEN CARRIES IT OUT SEEM TO TRACK
WITH SITES THAT HAVE LACK OF SINCERE CONTENT MODERATION.
>> VERY, VERY IMPORTANT POINT YOU'RE SEEING THAT TREND.
ARIA, YOU HAVE SEEN THE TONE SHIFT, RIGHT, WITH THE RHETORIC.
>> YEP. >> SINCE TRUMP LEFT OFFICE.
CAN YOU TELL US HOW? >> WELL, WHILE TRUMP WAS IN
OFFICE, MOST OF THE TALK INSIDE YOU HAVE TO CALL IT MAGA WORLD,
THE PART OF THE ONLINE EXTREMISM THAT WAS SUPPORTIVE OF TRUMP WAS
SOCIALLY PRO-GOVERNMENT IN ITS ORIENTATION.
TRUMP WAS THE GOVERNMENT. THEY SUPPORTED HIM.
AND THEY -- WHETHER THERE WAS SUSPICION OF THE FBI OR OTHER
AUTHORITIES, WAS A SENSE THAT ESSENTIALLY AS LONG AS TRUMP WAS
IN CHARGE, THINGS WOULD BE OKAY. OBVIOUSLY AFTER JANUARY 6th,
AFTER THE INAUGURATION WHEN JOE BIDEN BECAME PRESIDENT, THERE
HAS BEEN A SHIFT. WE'RE SEEING THE REEMERGENCE OF
PERHAPS A MORE CLASSIC, CLASSICAL RIGHT WING
ANTI-GOVERNMENT EXTREMISM AND THE DISCOURSE.
AND YOU KNOW, WHETHER THAT IS AROUND COVID MEASURES, WHICH HAS
BEEN THE DOMINANT FORM OF RIGHT WING ANTI-GOVERNMENT EXTREMISM
FOR THE LAST YEAR AND A HALF OR SO, NOW COVID MEASURES HAVE KIND
OF LARGELY GONE. THAT ENERGY IS BEING POURED INTO
OTHER AREAS. ONE OF THE THINGS WE'RE SEEING
IN PARTICULAR IS THE MAR-A-LAGO SEARCH IS BEING A TRIGGER.
ANOTHER ONE, ODDLY ENOUGH, THESE TWO ARE CONFLATED IN THE LAST
WEEK AND A HALF ON THE RIGHT IS THE PLANS TO INCREASE FUNDING
FOR THE IRS. AND YOU'LL SEE THOSE TWO THINGS
SPOKEN ABOUT AS IF THEY'RE THE SAME THING.
AS IF THIS IS ALL A PART, A PLAN OF THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT TO
CLAMP DOWN ON PEOPLE LIKE US, TRUMP FIRST AND THEN I GUESS ALL
OF HIS SUPPORTERS.