THE U.S. WORRIES RUSH MAY USE
CHEMICAL WEAPONS AND THEN TRY TO
BLAME UKRAINE FOR IT. >> JOINING US NOW, PROFESSOR OF
>> JOINING US NOW, PROFESSOR OF
HISTORY AT TULANE UNIVERSITY
SEBASTIAN JUNGER.
HIS MOST REPEAT BOOK IS TITLED "FREEDOM."
IN YOUR LATEST PIECE IN "VANITY
FAIR" CAN UKRAINIAN FREEDOM
FIGHTERS STAND UP TO THE RUSSIAN
MILITARY?
YOU WRITE FROM STREET-CORNER
FISTFIGHTS TO INSURGENCYIES AND
WARS, SIZE IS A TERRIBLE
PREDICTOR FOR THE KOUT COME OF
HUMAN CONFLICT.
MOST SUCCESSFUL UNDERDOG GROUPS
HAVE THREE THINGS IN COMMON AND
UKRAINE HAS ALL OF THEM.
FIRST, SUCH GROUPS NEED TORE A
CLEAR, MORAL PURPOSE WITH DEEP
ROOTS IN THE HISTORY OF THE POP
LADIES AND GENTLEMEN.
SUCCESSFUL UNDERDOG GROUPS ALSO
REQUIRE FEARLESS LEADERSHIP.
LEADERS WHO ARE NOT WILLING TO
ACCEPT THE SAME RISKS AND
HARDSHIPs AS THEIR FOLLOWERS IN
TIMES OF WAR WILL NOT REMAIN
LEADERS AND MOST REBELLIONS WILL
FAIL.
THE FINAL COMPONENT OF
SUCCESSFUL UNDERDOG GROUPS ARE
WOMEN.
PUTIN IS FACING A MORAL ENEMY
WITH BRAVE LEADERSHIP AND HEAVY
FEMALE INVOLVEMENT.
HISTORY SHOWS THAT IF HE DOES
NOT WIN QUICKLY, HE MAY NEVER
WIN AT ALL AND SEBASTIAN, WOMEN
ARE STEPPING UP IN UKRAINE INTO
THE FIGHT.
>> YEAH.
I LOOKED AT MIXED SITUATIONS.
THIS IS OPEN WARFARE, BUT IF YOU
LOOK INTO THE LABOR MOVEMENT.
THE CIVIL RIGHTS MOVEMENT.
FREEDOM MOVEMENTS ALL OVER THE
WORLD, THAT ONCE YOU GET WOMEN
INVOLVED, THEY BRING THE SORT OF
MORAL AUTHORITY THAT A GROUP OF
MEN IN THE STREET YOU KNOW RISK
LOOKING LIKE JUST A RIOT.
RIGHT.
BUT WITH WOMEN IN THERE, IT HAS
TO BE TAKEN SERIOUSLY AND
DESPOTS ARE ACTUALLY SOMETIMES
HESITANT TO FIRE ON GROUPS OF
WOMEN IN THE STREET.
I LOOKED AT THE LABOR MOVEMENT
IN LAWRENCE, MASSACHUSETTS IN
1912 AND WHEN THEY PUT WOMEN ON
THE FRONT LINES, FACING THE
BAYONETS.
ONE POLICE CHIEF SAID ONE COP
CAN HANDLE TEN MEN.
IT HANDLES TEN COPS TO HANDLE
ONE WOMAN, THERE IS A GREATER
POWER ONCE WOMEN ARE INVOLVED.
>> WALTER, IT'S SCINATING, WE
HAVE BEEN TALKING ABOUT THAT
SOME TIME WITH A FRIEND FROM THE
REGION YESTERDAY THAT YOU NOT
ONLY HAVE WOMEN, GRANDMOTHERS
GOING OUT TO RUSSIAN SOLDIERS
AND SAYING THINGS, VERBALLY
ASSAULTING THEM, TELLING THEM TO
GET THE HECK OUT OF THEIR
COUNTRY.
BUT THE RUSSIAN SOLDIERS ARE
LOOKING AT WOMAN WHO LOOK AN
AWFUL LOT LIKE THEIR
GRANDMOTHERS, SOME WHO SPEAK
RUSSIAN.
THESE HAS PUT THESE YOUNG
CONSCRIPTS IN A POSITION MOST
SOLDIERS ARE NOT USED TO BEING
PUT IN.
>> AND WHEN YOU DO THINGS LIKE
BOMB A MATERNITY HOSPITAL,
THAT'S WHEN YOU REALLY HELP
BRING PEOPLE OUT ON THE STREETS
AND ESPECIALLY MOTHERS AND WOMEN
AND IT MAKES OCCUPATION HARD.
ONE OF THE THINGS HISTORY TELLS
US AND SEBASTIAN'S PIECE IS ALL
ABOUT THAT, TOO, IS THAT
OCCUPATIONS ARE HARD.
YOU ARE OCCUPYING AFGHANISTAN,
FOR THAT MATTER, THE BRITISH
OCCUPYING THE COLONIES.
IT'S IN THE DNA OF PEOPLE TO
PROTECT THEIR HOMELAND AND
ESPECIALLY WHEN IT BECOMES A
TIME WHEN WOMEN ARE SAYING, THIS
IS OUR HOMELAND, YOU ARE
INVADING US, YOU ARE DESTROYING
US.
>> YEAH, YOU KNOW, SEBASTIAN,
NATIONS DO HAVE CHARACTERS OF
THEIR OWN, SOME NATIONS, SOME
PEOPLE ARE FAR MORE RESISTANT TO
OCCUPATION.
WE LEARNED THAT THE HARDEST OF
WAYS.
IN VIETNAM, WE WERE FIGHTING
AGAINST A PEOPLE WHO WERE NOT
GOING TO BE SUBMISSIVE TO THE
FRENCH OR THE UNITED STATES.
YOU SAW THAT IN AFGHANISTAN AND
NOW WE'RE LEARNING SOMETHING
ABOUT THE UKRAINIANS.
THEY ARE NOT THE TYPE OF PEOPLE
WHO REFUGEE GO SIT BACK AND BE
OCCUPIED.
ESPECIALLY BY A COUNTRY THAT
KILLED 3, 4 MILLION OF THEM BACK
IN THE 1930s.
>> THE WAR LOOKS VERY MUCH LIKE
THE WAR I SAW IN BOSNIA IN THE
EARLY '90s.
I THINK MOST PEOPLE WOULD DEFEND
THEIR HOMELAND WITH THE RISK OF
THEIR FAMILIES, THEIR CHILDREN,
THEIR HISTORY, DIGNITY.
FREEDOM COMES FROM THE MID-EVIL
GERMAN FOR THE WORD "BELOVED."
IN OTHER WORDS, THERE IS A CLOSE
TIE BETWEEN THE SENSE OF FREEDOM
AND DIGNE AT THE WE ALL WANT AND
THE PEOPLE WE WANT AND HOW DO WE PROTECT THEM FROM DEGRADATION.
PROTECT THEM FROM DEGRADATION.
>> YOU KNOW, WALTER, IT
FASCINATING.
WE FEARED THE RUSSIANS FOR
YEARS.
PEOPLE WOULD OFTEN PARROT PUTIN
TALKING POINTS.
WHAT'S BEEN SO FASCINATING HERE
IS HOW THE UKRAINIANS HAVE
ABSOLUTELY DESTROYED RUSSIA IN
THEIR EFFORTS.
ONE OF THE MOST TELLING
INSTANCES IS THAT STORY OF THE
GRANDMOTHER WALKING UP TO THE
RUSSIAN SOLDIERS SWEARING AT
HIM, SAYING, GET OUT OF MY
NEIGHBORHOOD, PUT THESE SOUND
FLOWER SEEDS IN YOUR POCKET SO
WHEN ARE YOU DEAD IN THE SOIL,
AT LEAST SUNFLOWERS WILL GROW.
THAT STORY MADE IT FROM A
VILLAGE IN YOU VAIN ALL THE WAY
TO ONE OF MY CHILD'S CLASSES IN
THE UNITED STATES WHERE ALL THE
KIDS REPUBLICANS AND DEMOCRATS
ALIKE, WERE JUST MESMERIZED BY
THIS STORY AND THERE IS ONE
INSTANCE OF THAT AFTER ANOTHER.
RUSSIA IS LOSING THEIR
MISINFORMATION WAR.
>> WELL, ONE OF THE THINGS WE
ALWAYS TRY I TO STUDY IS WHETHER
OR NOT THE FREE FLOW OF
INFORMATION WHICH THE INTERNET
AND SO MANY FORMS OF SOCIAL
MEDIA DO HELPS DEMOCRACY AND
INDIVIDUAL FREEDOM OR WHETHER
TYRANTS CAN TAKE IT OVER.
THE RUSSIANS HAVE TRIED VERY
HARD WITH DISINFORMATION,
CONTROL OF THE MEDIA.
THE GREAT THING RIGHT NOW, IT'S
NOT WORKING, UP UNTIL YOU KNOW
THIS INVASION, IT WAS ALWAYS A
QUESTION TO WHAT EXTENT UKRAINE
HAD A TRUE STRONG NATIONAL
IDENTITY.
WE ALWAYS THOUGHT IT DID.
RUSSIANS AND PUTIN WOULD SAY,