>>> JOINING US NOW, EDITOR OF ACCOUNT
ACCOUNT "COMMENTARY" MAGAZINE AND THE
"NEW YORK POST," JOHN PODHORETZ.
AND KAREN TUMULTY.
SEVERAL TOP TECH COMPANIES HAVE
RECENTLY LIMITED ALEX JONES FROM
SPREADING HIS CONSPIRACY
THEORIES ONLINE.
THEORIES ONLINE. BUT NOT TWITTER.
JACK DORSEY, TWITTER’S
CO-FOUNDER AND CHIEF EXECUTIVE,
SAYS IT IS UP TO REPORTERS TO
POLICE JONES’ CLAIMS, POSTING,
QUOTE, ACCOUNTS LIKE JONES’ CAN
OFTEN SENSATIONALIZE ISSUES AND
SPREAD UNSUBSTANTIATED RUMORS,
SO IT IS CRITICAL JOURNALISTS
DOCUMENT, VALIDATE AND REFUTE
SUCH INFORMATION DIRECTLY SO
PEOPLE CAN FORM THEIR OWN
OPINIONS.
OPINIONS. THIS IS WHAT SERVES THE PUBLIC
CONVERSATION BEST.
CONVERSATION BEST. SEVERAL JOURNALISTS THEN POSTED
SCREEN GRABS OF THEM DOING JUST
THAT OFFERING HARD FACTUAL
REPORTING TO CONTRADICT JONES’
FALSE CLAIMS, ONLY TO FACE MORE
SKEPTICISM AND ATTACKS FROM
JONES’ SUPPORTERS.
JONES’ SUPPORTERS. THIS, JOE, IS -- IT IS A
LONG-RUNNING CONTROVERSY ABOUT
WHAT A PLATFORM IS.
IS IT A PUBLISHER OR NOT.
AND CAN THEY COMPLETELY SEPARATE
THEMSELVES FROM ANY
RESPONSIBILITY.
RESPONSIBILITY. >> WELL, NO, THEY CAN’T.
THEY’RE THE ONES THAT ARE
PUBLISHING THE LIES AND JACK
DORSEY’S DEFENSE IS PRETTY
REMARKABLE.
REMARKABLE. WHEN YOU HAVE INFO WARS FOUNDER
SPREADING LIES THAT ACTUALLY
ENDANGER OF LIVES OF SANDY HOOK
PARENTS, HE’S SITTING THERE
GOING, WELL, IT’S NOT REALLY UP
TO US TO DETERMINE WHETHER THESE
ARE ACTORS WHO ARE PRETENDING
THAT THEY’RE 6 AND 7-YEAR-OLD
CHILDREN’S BODIES WERE RIDDLED
WITH BULLETS ON THE FRIDAY
BEFORE CHRISTMAS VACATION.
THAT’S REALLY UP TO JOURNALISTS
TO FIGURE THAT OUT.
RIGHT?
RIGHT? I DON’T UNDERSTAND.
AS DAVID FRENCH SAID, IF IT’S
SLANDER, IF IT’S A LIE, THEN
ISN’T THAT THE BEST MEASURE OF
WHETHER YOU PUBLISH IT OR NOT?
>> OKAY.
>> OKAY. SO THIS GOES DIRECTLY TO THE
HEART OF CORPORATE STRATEGY OF
SOCIAL MEDIA COMPANIES.
RIGHT?
RIGHT? SO THERE IS A PROVISION IN THE
LAW, AND HAS BEEN GOVERNING THIS
FOR TWO DECADES, THAT BASICALLY
TREATS INFORMATION THAT TRAVELS
OVER THE INTERNET AS THOUGH IT
IS A LETTER INSIDE AN ENVELOPE.
AND TWITTER AND FACEBOOK AND
YOUR E-MAIL COMPANIES AND ALL OF
THAT ARE HELD HARMLESS BY THE
LAW BECAUSE THEY’RE LIKE THE
POSTAL SERVICE.
POSTAL SERVICE. THEY’RE NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR
WHAT’S INSIDE THE ENVELOPE.
RIGHT?
RIGHT? THAT’S THE LEGAL THEORY.
IT’S NOT A LEGAL THEORY.
IT IS HOW THE LAW WORKS NOW.
THAT IS UNSUSTAINABLE BECAUSE IT
IS NOT THE CASE THAT TWITTER AND
FACEBOOK ARE SIMPLY DELIVERING
MAIL FROM ONE PERSON TO ANOTHER.
THESE ARE PUBLIC, FREE-ACCESS
SITES, AND I THINK THERE IS
GOING TO BE AN ENORMOUS AMOUNT
OF PRESSURE OVER THE NEXT COUPLE
OF YEARS TO COMPEL THESE
COMPANIES TO -- I MEAN A CHANGE
IN THE LAW THAT SAYS THAT THEY
ARE NOT HARMLESS FOR THE
INFORMATION THAT’S PURVEYED ON
THEIR SITE.
THEIR SITE. I THINK THERE --
>> WELL, YOU KNOW, JOHN, THEY
ACTUALLY PROFIT FROM SPREADING
LIES, FROM SPREADING SLANDER.
AND IF ANY PUBLIC FIGURE TRIES
TO SPEAK OUT AGAINST IT, THEN
THAT GENERATES MORE HATE, WHICH
OF COURSE GENERATES MORE
TRAFFIC, WHICH BENEFITS TWITTER
EVEN MORE.
EVEN MORE. JEFF GREENFIELD WROTE THIS.
IF SOMEONE TWEETS THAT JACK
DORSEY PRESITSDZ OVER SATANIC
CHILD
CHILD CHILD RAPE SLAUTERS AT TWITTER
HQ, YOU DON’T KNOW HOW TO BE BE
AN ARBITER OF THAT TRUTH?
CALLING SANDY HOOK A FAKE IS NOT
A VIEWPOINT, FOR GOD’S SAKE.
YOU HAVE THE SAME PERSON, KAREN,
TALKING ABOUT HOW ROBERT MUELLER
IS AT THE MIDDLE OF A CHILD
KIDNAPPING RING.
KIDNAPPING RING. AGAIN, THERE’S ABSOLUTELY NO
DEFENSE FOR ANY OF THIS SPEECH.
IT’S SLANDER, AND IT -- I DON’T
UNDERSTAND WHY TWITTER A HE ERTE
DRAGGING THEIR FEET HERE.
>> I THINK CORPORATIONS ARE
STRUGGLING TO SORT OF FIGURE OUT
WHAT’S THE LINE BETWEEN SPEECH
THAT IS OFFENSIVE AND SPEECH
THAT IS ACTUALLY HARMFUL.
AND IT IS A DIFFICULT THING.
FREE SPEECH -- NOW CORPORATIONS
ARE NOT BOUND THE WAY THE
GOVERNMENT IS TO RESPECT FREEDOM
OF SPEECH.
OF SPEECH. >> WELL, KAREN, JUST TO STEP IN
HERE THOUGH, HOW DIFFICULT IS IT
TO FIGURE OUT WHETHER IT’S
SLANDEROUS AND WHETHER IT IS
ACCEPTABLE OR NOT, TO SPREAD
RUMORS THAT LED TO PIZZA GATE,
THAT LED TO THE SHOOTING AT
PIZZA GATE.
PIZZA GATE. OR THAT SANDY HOOK PARENTS ARE
ACTORS WHO ARE ACTUALLY HAVING
TO MOVE FROM ONE PLACE TO
ANOTHER TO ANOTHER BECAUSE THE
HATRED SPREAD ON TWITTER AND
OTHER SITES ARE ACTUALLY LEADING
THEM TO FEAR FOR THEIR LIVES?
>> MY OWN OPINION IS THAT ALEX
JONES HAS DEFINITELY CROSSED
THAT LINE AND THE ISSUE FOR
TWITTER IS GOING TO BE
POTENTIALLY THIS MAY BE
SOMETHING THAT ENDS UP GETTING
SETTLED IN COURT AND COSTING
THEM A LOT OF MONEY.
BUT IT’S A BUSINESS DECISION AND
THE FACT THAT SO MANY OTHER
SOCIAL MEDIA PLATFORMS SEE IT SO
CLEARLY, I DON’T KNOW WHAT IS
GOING ON IN TWITTER’S BUSINESS
MODEL WHERE THEY THINK THAT THIS
IS LIKE A GOOD IDEA.
>> CAN I JUST --
>> YEAH.
>> YEAH. JUMP IN.
JUMP IN. >> IF -- IF -- IT’S A BAD IDEA.
IF TWITTER IS SUPPOSED TO
MEDIATE THE COMMENTS, TWITTER’S
AN UNSUSTAINABLE BUSINESS.
GOD KNOWS, 5 MILLION, 10 MILLION
TWEETS A DAY?
EVERY ONE OF THEM UNDER AN
EDITORIAL POLICY WOULD HAVE TO
HAVE AN EYE CAST ON IT BY A
TWITTER EMPLOYEE TO APPROVE IT
BEFORE IT GOES UP.
THAT IS NOT ANY WAY THAT THAT
COMPANY CAN MANAGE.
>> SO NOAH, PART OF THE
COUNTERARGUMENT TO THIS IS THAT
IF YOU TAKE HATE SPEECH --
TALKING ABOUT LIBEL, SLANDER AND
EVEN HARASSMENT.
EVEN HARASSMENT. IF YOU TAKE THIS AS HATE SPEECH,
SOCIAL MEDIA COMPANIES SHOULD
NOT BE IN THE POSITION OF
DETERMINING WHAT IS HATEFUL IN
SPEECH AND THEREBY PUTTING
PEOPLE OUT OF THE PUBLIC SQUARE
WHOSE WORLD VIEW THEY DISAGREE
WITH.
WITH. ALEX JONES MAY BE A UNIQUE CASE,
BUT THE PRECEDENT OF THEIR
DECIDING THAT COULD BE
PROBLEMATIC.
PROBLEMATIC. >> YEAH.
>> YEAH. THEN YOU HAVE TO DEFINE WHAT IS
HATE SPEECH.
HATE SPEECH. IN THE UK THEY DON’T HAVE A
FIRST AMENDMENT.
FIRST AMENDMENT. YOU CAN BE PROSECUTED FOR THINGS
THAT YOU POST ON SOCIAL MEDIA
THAT RUN AFOUL OF CERTAIN
GUIDELINES.
GUIDELINES. THE EXTENT TO WHICH YOU COULD
PUNISH PEOPLE.
PUNISH PEOPLE. I DO NOT UNDERSTAND THE IMPULSE
AMONG JOURNALISTS TO SAY -- WHY
DOESN’T TWITTER POLICE THIS
SPEECH?
SPEECH? WE DON’T WANT TO HAVE TO DO
THIS.
THIS. THIS IS RIDICULOUS.
I DON’T WANT TO HAVE TO ADDRESS
THIS.
THIS. WHY NOT?
WHY NOT? MY IMPULSE IS ALWAYS TO SAY THAT
THE CURE FOR THE ILLS OF FREE
EXPRESSION, IS ALWAYS MORE FREE
EXPRESSION.
EXPRESSION. TO EXTENT TO WHICH WE ARE
SHUTTING THIS DOWN CREATING A
TABOO AROUND IT ISN’T HEALTHY,
IT IS NOT GOING TO MAKE IT GO
AWAY.
AWAY. JONES ISN’T A NEW PHENOMENON.
THERE WAS A 9/11 CONSPIRACY.
EVERYBODY LIKES DOING THIS.
I DON’T UNDERSTAND WHY THERE IS
A RETICENCE TO ENGAGE THIS GUY.
HE’S A TARGET.
>> THERE IS A LINE.
>>> JOHN, TO YOUR COLUMN IN THE
"NEW YORK POST" THAT THERE MAY
BE SOMETHING BEHIND PRESIDENT’S
"BLAME THE MEDIA" BLITZ.
>> MY VIEW IS WHEN LAST WEEK AS
THE HEAT -- TRUMP TURNED UP THE
HEAT ON THE MEDIA, "HORRIBLE
PEOPLE," "ENEMY OF THE PEOPLE,"
ALL OF THAT, THAT IT SEEMED
WEIRD BECAUSE HE HAD SO MUCH
GOOD NEWS TO BANDY ABOUT.
RIGHT?
RIGHT? 4.1% GROWTH.
4.1% GROWTH. REPORTING 9% UNEMPLOYMENT.
THIS IS WHAT YOU WANT TO TALK
ABOUT ON THE CAMPAIGN TRAIL --
OR A NORMAL POLITICIAN WOULD
NORMALLY WANT TO TALK ABOUT.
IS TRUMP PUTTING SUCCESSES AND
SAYING VOTE FOR MY PEOPLE SO WE
CAN KEEP THIS GOING.
THAT WAS NOT WHERE ALL THE
ENERGY WAS.
ENERGY WAS. I’M WONDERING WHETHER SOMEWHERE
IN THE BACK OF HIS MIND -- OR
EVEN AS A POSSIBLE DELIBERATE
WHITE HOUSE STRATEGY -- THE IDEA
NOW IS THAT HE IS ESTABLISHING
THE PREDICATE FOR THE REASON
THAT REPUBLICANS LOSE THE HOUSE
IN NOVEMBER, WHICH IS TO SAY THE
FAKE NEWS DID IT, THE FAKE NEWS
MADE ME LOSE.
>> YEP.
>> YEP. >> AND THAT IF YOU THINK ABOUT
IT, WHEN IN 2016 WHEN HE KEPT
REFUSING TO SAY THAT HE WOULD
ABIDE BY THE RESULTS OF THE
ELECTION BECAUSE THE ELECTION
WAS RIGGED, THIS IS A NEW WAY OF
SAYING THE ELECTION -- HE CAN’T
SAY THE ELECTION WAS RIGGED
BECAUSE REPUBLICANS RUN MOST OF
THE ELECTORAL PROCESSES IN THE
UNITED STATES.
UNITED STATES. STATES AND HE’S THE PRESIDENT
AND THEY HAVE THE HOUSE AND THE
SENATE.
SENATE. SO HE HAS TO HAVE ANOTHER REASON
WHY HE LOST, THAT HE CAN BLAME,
AND IT IS THE MEDIA.
>> THIS IS VINTAGE TRUMP.
KAREN, WE’LL GET TO YOUR PIECE
IN JUST A MOMENT.
BUT FROM OUR KNOWLEDGE OF HIS
PERSONALITY AND THE WAY HE
THINKS, I DON’T THINK THIS IS
WHITE HOUSE STRATEGY.
THIS IS JUST WHAT TRUMP DOES.
THIS IS HIS SWEET SPOT.
>> HE ALSO WAS JUST A MASTER OF
DISTRACTION AND THE MEDIA IS ONE
OF HIS FAVORITE WAYS OF DOING
THAT.
THAT. IN PART, I FAULT THE MEDIA HERE
BECAUSE WE ESSENTIALLY SWING AT
EVERY PITCH HE THROWS OVER THE
PLATE HERE.
PLATE HERE. IT IS ALSO A WAY OF TURNING THE
CONVERSATION FROM PLACES THAT HE
DOESN’T WANT IT TO BE.
>> THAT’S ACTUALLY A GREAT
BASEBALL METAPHOR.
BASEBALL METAPHOR. IT IS LIKE WATCHING YOUR
FAVORITE TEAM AND WATCHING A
BATTEDER ER
BATTEDER ER BATTER SWING AT ONE LOW AND
OUTSIDE PITCH AFTER ANOTHER.
THAT IS WHAT THE MEDIA’S BEEN
DOING FOR THE FIRST 18 MONTHS OF
THE ADMINISTRATION.
THE ADMINISTRATION. EVERY TWEET IS BREAKING NEWS.
EVERY INSULT IS A SCREAMING
HEADLINE.
HEADLINE. THAT’S EXACTLY WHAT HE WANTS.
WHAT HE DOESN’T WANT, KAREN, HE
DOESN’T WANT AMERICANS READING
STORIES ABOUT WHAT YOU SAY A
TRUMP REPUBLICAN SHOULD BE
WORRIED ABOUT, WHICH IS, AGAIN,
THE REASON I GOT IN TO CONGRESS
IN 1994 WAS ABOUT THE RISING
DEFICIT, THE RISING DEBT.
IT WAS AT $4 TRILLION THEN.
IT’S AT $21 TRILLION NOW.
AND TRUMP IS SPENDING -- BIGGEST
SPENDING BILL EVER PASSED BY
THIS REPUBLICAN CONGRESS BECAUSE
OF DONALD TRUMP.
>> AND IT’S REALLY -- TRUMP
ALSO, BY THE WAY, RAN ON THE
PROMISE THAT HE WOULD NOT ONLY
REDUCE, BUT THAT HE WOULD PAY
OFF THE NATIONAL DEBT.
HE’S GOING EXACTLY THE OPPOSITE
DIRECTION.
DIRECTION. IT’S REALLY SURPRISING HOW FEW
CONSERVATIVES ARE EVEN WILLING
TO TALK ABOUT THE FACT THAT THE
RECEIPTS TO THE GOVERNMENT HAVE
GONE DOWN DRASTICALLY THANKS TO
TAX CUTS, THAT SPEND SOMETHING
GROWING, THAT TRUMP HAS TAKEN
ENTITLEMENTS COMPLETELY OFF THE
TABLE.
TABLE. AND NOW REPUBLICANS ARE TALKING
ABOUT A SECOND ROUND OF TAX
CUTS.
CUTS. ALL OF THIS IS BALLOONING THE
DEFICIT TO LEVELS THAT WE HAVE
NEVER SEEN IN A TIME OF
PROSPERITY.
PROSPERITY. DEFICITS USUALLY GO DOWN WHEN
THE ECONOMY IS DOING WELL.
>> JOHN, WE HAVE TO TALK ABOUT
MISSION IMPOSSIBLE IN JUST A
SECOND.
SECOND. BUT FIRST, SINCE WE’VE EXHAUSTED
OUR ANALYST THIS MORNING OVER
ALMOST THREE HOURS OF OHIO 12,
WHAT’S YOURS?
WHAT’S YOURS? WHAT HAPPENED LAST NIGHT?
>> WHAT HAPPENED LAST NIGHT IS
THE REPUBLICANS LOST THE HOUSE.
I MEAN, THERE ARE 23 SEATS.
DEMOCRATS NEEDED 23 SEATS.
THERE ARE 24 SEATS THAT HAVE
REPUBLICAN CONGRESSMAN THAT
HILLARY CLINTON WON THE CD IN
2016.
2016. IF ANY OF THEM HAS AN EVEN
REMOTELY CREDIBLE CANDIDATE, THE
DEMOCRATS WINS.
DEMOCRATS WINS. UNDER THESE -- THE THING THAT WE
SAW LAST NIGHT IS DEMOCRATS UP
10%, REPUBLICANS DOWN 10%.
SO NO ONE SURVIVES THAT.
>> AND WITH REPUBLICANS AND THE
PRESIDENT WITH THEIR FOOT ON THE
GAS IN THAT DISTRICT TRYING TO
PUSH HIM OVER THE TOP.
OKAY.
OKAY. "MISSION IMPOSSIBLE."
"MISSION IMPOSSIBLE." YOUR REVIEW, YOU WRITE ONE OF
THE MOST ASTOUNDING ACTION
ADVENTURE PICTURES EVER.
THE MOST ENTERTAINING PICTURE OF
THE YEAR.
THE YEAR. BASED ALMOST SOLELY ON YOUR
REVIEW I TOOK MY KIDS TO SEE IT.
I AGREE, IT WAS INCREDIBLE.
>> TRUST CONTENT FROM JOHN
PODHORETZ.
PODHORETZ. I WASN’T EXPECTING TO FEEL THIS
WAY ABOUT THE MOVIE.
I FIND I’VE BEEN VERY "MEH" ON
BOTH OF THE SIX "MISSION
IMPOSSIBLES."
IMPOSSIBLES." FOURTH WAS KIND OF FUN, FIFTH
WAS OKAY.
WAS OKAY. THIS JUST KNOCKED ME OUT OF THE
BACK OF THE THEATER.
FORGET THE PLOT.
WE WERE DISCUSSING THIS.
YOU CAN’T UNDERSTAND THE PLOT!
>> I JUST DON’T GET IT.
>> DON’T TRY TO FOLLOW THE PLOT.
>> TOM CRUISE STILL HAS IT, AND
THEN SOME.
THEN SOME. SO GOOD.
SO GOOD. DON’T YOU AGREE, MIKA?
>> I DON’T GET IT.
NO, I JUST -- NO.
>> I’M GOING TODAY.
>> I’M NOT INTO ALL THIS STUFF.
KAREN TUMULTY, THANK YOU VERY
MUCH.
MUCH. THANK YOU, BOTH.
>>> COMING UP, PRESIDENT TRUMP
HAS RECENTLY PRAISED SAUDI
ARABIA’S LEADERSHIP AND HAMMERED
CANADA’S.
CANADA’S. NOW THOSE TWO COUNTRIES ARE
LOCKED IN A GROWING DIPLOMATIC
DISPUTE.
DISPUTE. WILL THE U.S. TAKE SIDES?
THE PRESIDENT MIGHT BUT WILL THE