John: For decades, U.S. News and
world report has been ranking
colleges and universities, and,
for decades, colleges and
universities have complained
about the guide's outsized
influence and the criteria it
uses.
This week, Columbia university
said it would no longer provide
information for the rankings,
the highest-profile drop out
from the undergraduate ratings.
This follows a parade of
prestigious law schools and
medical schools that said they'd
no longer participate in the
graduate school rankings.
Francie Diep is a senior
reporter for "The chronicle of
higher education," covering
money in higher education.
When Columbia announced the step
they were taking, they said they
had concerns about how the
rankings distill a university
profile into a composite of data
categories.
"Numbers alone could never
convey the broader experience of
undergraduate life at Columbia."
Is that the gist of their
arguments against the rankings?
Francie: Yeah, it's a big ideal
for both Colombia and other
colleges that have complained
about the rankings.
I would say another big thing
for colleges as they feel that
their rankings create sort of
perverse incentives.
So, for example, the law schools
you mentioned, they dropped out,
a number of them decided to not
cooperate with U.S. News.
One of the complaints was that
the rankings formula depends a
lock on the employment rates of
graduates, what you can
understand why you would want
that in your rankings.
You go to law school and you
hope that you're employed
afterwards.
But some of the law schools that
left U.S. News complained that
fellowships do not count as
employment.
They were saying a lot of these
fellowships funded by the
schools themselves prepared
students to go into public
interest law.
So you can see how not counting
fellowships as employment than
-- then might encourage law
skills -- law schools to offer
fewer of these scholarships,
maybe encourage just not to go
to public interest law good
John: How does U.S. News respond
to those complaints?
Francie: They've always said
that they provide important data
to students.
That there are a source of
independent third party breaking
-- ranking or evaluation of
colleges.
That they don't encourage
students to use the ranking
number only, that it needs to be
one of a lot of things you look
at you they've also said they
will continue ranking those
colleges that have totally
dropped out.
They can still create a ranking,
even without the colleges
cooperating.
John: Columbia is the highest
profile school and member of the
ivy league to drop out of these
rankings.
Do you think we're going to see
a parade like we did with the
law schools and medical schools?
Francie: Yeah, you know, it's
really hard to know.
I haven't heard of anything.
But that said, if any schools
are planning to do this, they
probably will keep it
tightlipped.
That said the data survey that
, colleges turn into U.S. News,
that's due in like weeks.
So if colleges have plans to
boycott, we will see that come
out pretty soon.
John: I know you talked to high
school students and guidance
counselors to get a sense of how
influential these rankings are.
What did they tell you?
Francie: One thing you worry
about is a prospective student
is only going to look at the
ranking and not other factors
that might be important to them.
Like price or programs.
When I talked to students, at
least, you know, they all seem
pretty savvy.
They understood that rankings
had flaws.
They understood that they
weren't supposed to look at only
that.
One kind of interesting thing I
found was that the students that
tended to rely the most on the
rankings were actually sort of
students who were ambitious,
they could get into several good
schools, but they weren't using
counselors or their parents very
much for guidance, kind of going
it on their own.
Maybe their parents didn't go to
college at all.
You can see why the rankings
might be appealing to a student
like that.
Going into the story, I kind of
expected that it might be sort
of private school students, prep
school student.
Might be sort of especially
concerned with prestige.
But in fact what I found was
that those students go to
schools where they have been
told by counselors for years you
have to think about more than
ranking.
It's really the students with
less guidance who rely more on
the rankings.
John: How did U.S. News & world
report sort of a general
, interest magazine, which also
rates I believe cars, riots and
nursing homes become so
, influential in higher
education?
Francie: That's a great
question.
They started ranking colleges
pretty early.
I don't think they were the
absolute first, but they have
been doing it since the late
1980's, came out with the best
colleges list.
So you know, I think being one
of the first probably helps them
with the influence a lot.
Another thing is that at the
time that the rankings came out,
it was a time when more young
Americans are going to college
than ever, over the past few
decades the number of young
Americans going to higher Ed
has like tripled.
So you're having a lot of
students who like the students
that I talked to maybe the first
in their families to go to
college.
Just looking for a way to
evaluate and decide where to go.
This product fulfilled that
need.
Its influence is only grown
until today, although perhaps
waning now that there's been
more of a public boycott.
John: Thank you very much.
Francie: Thank you for having
me.
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