I MEAN, MY GOODNESS, HAVE WE NOT
LEARNED OUR LESSON?
ERIC: WELL, THAT’S FRESHMAN
CONGRESSMAN CALLING ON JUSTICE
BREYER TO RETIRE.
HE WAS NOMINATED BY PRESIDENT
CLINTON BACK IN 1994.
HE’S 82 YEARS OLD.
THE THINKING WOULD BE TO HAVE
PRESIDENT BIDEN REPLACE HIM WITH
A LIKE-MINDED JUSTICE SO A
REPUBLICAN PRESIDENT CAN’T.
FOR MORE ON THIS, PHIL WEGMANN’S
HERE, WHITE HOUSE REPORTER FROM
REAL CLEAR POLITICS.
LET’S START WITH JUSTICE BREYER.
JONES’ DEMAND, IS THAT A CALL IN
THE WILDERNESS, OR IS THERE REAL
PRESSURE ON BREYER TO TURN IN
HIS ROBES?
>> CERTAINLY, I THINK THAT YOU
CANNOT DIVORCE THE CONVERSATION
ABOUT EXPANDING THE NUMBER OF
JUSTICES ON THE SUPREME COURT
FROM WHAT WE JUST HEARD FROM THE
REPRESENTATIVE.
IF YOU WANT TO CONVINCE ONE OF
THESE SUPREME COURT JUSTICES TO
HEAD FOR THE EXIT, WHAT’S THE
BEST WAY?
TO START THE HAVING A
CONVERSATION ABOUT PACKING THE
COURT, ABOUT ADDING JUSTICES,
ABOUT DILUTING THEIR POWER AS A
RESULT.
AND I THINK THAT WE’RE GOING TO
SEE A LOT MORE OF THIS IN THE
COMING WEEKS AND MONTHS.
I THINK THAT REPRESENTATIVE
JONES THERE, HE IS JUST BEING
HONEST.
I THINK THAT HE’S AHEAD OF THE
CURVE AND WILLING TO HAVE A
FRANK CONVERSATION PUBLICLY THAT
IS CURRENTLY HAPPENING BEHIND
CLOSED DOORS PRIVATELY.
>> Reporter: BUT THIS IS A JOB
FOR LIFE.
YOU DON’T HAVE TO SPEND STEP
DOWN IF YOU DON’T WANT TO.
>> YEAH, CERTAINLY, AND I THINK
THAT’S WHY THERE’S THIS
DISCONNECT BETWEEN THE
EXPECTATIONS OF THESE SUPREME
COURT JUSTICES WHO HAVE WORKED
VERY HARD TO APPEAR NOT
POLITICAL, TO APPEAR NOT
INVOLVED IN THE DAY-TO-DAY RED
VERSUS BLUE AND THEN SOME OF
THESE QUESTIONS OF DECORUM.
YOU KNOW, BOTH REPUBLICANS AND
DEMOCRATS, THEY NEVER WANT TO
GIVE THE IMPRESSION THAT THEY
ARE ONLY NOMINATING SOMEONE
BECAUSE OF THE WAY THAT THEY
WILL VOTE, BUT, YOU KNOW, WE
HEARD IT IN THAT A CLIP,
DEMOCRATS FEEL LIKE THEY GOT
BURNED TOWARDS THE END OF THE
OBAMA YEARS.
THEY LOVED RUTH GINSBURG, BUT
THEY THINK SHE REMAINED ON THE
COURT BECAUSE IT IS A LIFETIME
POSITION, THAT SHE ESSENTIALLY
ALLOWED HER SEAT TO BE FILLED BY
PRESIDENT TRUMP.
TO DEMOCRATS, IT’S A DIFFICULT
CONVERSATION, BUT I THINK THAT,
YOU KNOW, THEY SEEM TO BE
WILLING TO HAVE IT.
ERIC: AND DEMOCRATS ARE ACCUSING
PRESIDENT TRUMP OF PACKING THE
COURT AND MITCH McCONNELL,
THEY SAY THAT THEY SPEED-PASSED
AMY CONEY BARRETT RIGHT ON THE
’OF THE ELECTION WHEN
McCONNELL BLOCKED MERRICK
GARLAND, THE ATTORNEY GENERAL,
FOR SO LONG.
IT’S BEEN A MIXED BAG, AND
CRITICS HAVE SAID THAT RUTH
BADER GINSBURG SHOULD HAVE
RETIRED SO PRESIDENT OBAMA COULD
HAVE SLOTTED A LIBERAL JUSTICE
IN.
BUT LET’S THAT TAKE A LOOK.
JUSTICE STEVENS WAS REPLACED BY
ELENA KAGAN, ANTHONY KENNEDY BY
KAVANAUGH, JUSTICE SOUTER BY
SOTOMAYOR.
ON THE SHORT LIST WOULD MERRICK
GARLAND BE ON PRESIDENT BIDEN’S
SHORT POTENTIALLY IF BREYER
HEARS THESE WHISPERS AND DECIDED
TO STEP DOWN?
>> WELL, I THINK THAT GARLAND
POSSIBLY COULD BE.
OBVIOUSLY, OVER, YOU KNOW, AT
THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE HE’S
BECOMING MORE POLITICAL AS THAT
ROLE REQUIRES.
BUT I THINK WHAT’S REALLY
INTERESTING ABOUT THAT IS THAT
IF YOU LOOK BACK AT PRESIDENT
TRUMP, ONE OF THE AREAS WHERE HE
WAS VERY CAREFUL AND HE DID NOT
WANT TO ROCK THE BOAT WAS
SUPREME COURT JUSTICES.
AND I THINK WE SEE SOMETHING
SLIGHTLY SIMILAR HERE WHEN IT
COMES TO THE COURT-PACKING
QUESTION.
YOU KNOW, EARLIER THIS WEEK WHEN
SHE WAS ASKED ABOUT IT, WHITE
HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY JEN PSAKI
SORT OF DEFERRED.
SHE SAID, LOOK, WE’RE GOING TO
WAIT FOR THIS PRESIDENTIAL
COMMISSION ON JUDICIAL REFORM TO
COME OUT BEFORE BIDEN IS GOING
TO SAY ONE WAY OR THE OTHER IF
HE WOULD SUPPORT ADDING MORE
JUSTICE.
BUT EVERYTHING THAT WAS OLD IS
NEW AGAIN.
REMEMBER BACK DURING THE
CAMPAIGN YOU HAD A LOT OF FOLKS
ON THE RIGHT CALLING ON BIDEN TO
RELEASE HIS SHORT LIST FOR
PEOPLE THAT HE WOULD NOMINATE,
AND I THINK THAT, YOU KNOW,
BASICALLY WHAT WE’RE SEEING
RIGHT NOW IS THAT EVERYONE IS
GETTING READY FOR SOME TYPE OF
BATTLE IN THE NEXT THREE YEARS
IF CONFIRMATION COMES AGAIN.
ERIC: AND THE BACKGROUND ON
THIS, THIS COMMISSION, DOES
BREYER ANY OF THAT -- TAKE ANY
OF THAT INTO CONSIDERATION?
WHAT DO YOU THINK HIS THINKING
IS IN TERMS OF STEPPING DOWN OR
NOT?
DOES HE THINK POLITICALLY OR
DOES HE THINK, YOU KNOW, IN
TERMS OF INDEPENDENT JUDICIAL
PROCESS?
>> YEAH.
SO FROM THE FOLKS THAT I’VE
TALKED TO WHO ARE ADJACENT AND
SORT OF, YOU KNOW, RUN IN
SIMILAR CIRCLES AS SOME OF HIS
FORMER CLERK ARES, THE
EXPECTATION IS THAT HE IS VERY
OPPOSED TO COURT PACKING.
WE SAW RUTH BADER GINSBURG ALSO
VOICE HER OPPOSITION TO THIS
BECAUSE THE SUPREME COURT, OF
COURSE, PRIDES ITSELF ON BEING A
INSTITUTION WHICH IS ABOVE
POLITICS.
BUT YOU’VE GOT TO THINK THE THAT
THESE JUSTICES, YOU KNOW, THEY
READ NEWSPAPERS, THEY PAY
ATTENTION TO POLITICS JUST LIKE
EVERYONE ELSE, I THINK THAT, YOU
KNOW, THEY ARE NOT IMMUNE FROM
THIS TYPE OF PRESSURE, AND I
THINK THAT, YOU KNOW, WE MIGHT
SEE, YOU KNOW, SOME MOVEMENT,
YOU KNOW, SOME SIGNALS PERHAPS
THROUGH, YOU KNOW, THEIR FORMER
CLERKS.
IT’S GOING TO BE INTERESTING NO
MATTER WHAT HAPPENSMENT --
HAPPENS.
ERIC: YEAH.
AND, OBVIOUSLY, IF HE TAKES THAT
POSITION, HE’D LIKELY NOT WANT
TO RETIRE.
FINALLY, A UTAH LAW STUDY SAYS
THERE’S NO GUARANTEE IF YOU SWAP
SOMEONE ON THE BENCH TO GET THEM
IN THERE THAT THEY’LL BE EXACTLY
THE PERSON TO REPLACE.
SOME JUS WITH DISS ARE OPENLY
VOICED POLITICAL GOAL WITHS FOR
RETIREMENT OR REGRETTED
RETIREMENT TO ANOTHER
IDEOLOGICALLY INCOMPATIBLE
PRESIDENTS.
PARTISANSHIP CURRENTLY DOMINATES
THE DEPARTURE PROCESS AND
JUSTICES WHO TIME THEIR
RETIREMENTS PRETTY CREATE HAD --
POLITICALLY HAD LIMITED SUCCESS
OF OBTAINING LIKE-MINDED
REPLACEMENTS.
SO IF YOU WERE A BETTING MAN,
PHIL, WHAT WOULD YOU BET
BREYER’S GOING TO DO?
>> I THINK THE SAFE BET HERE IS,
ACTUALLY, NOT SO TO SAY WHETHER
HE’S GOING TO STEP DOWN, I THINK
THE SAFER BET IS THAT THERE’S
SOMETHING TO THAT REPUBLICAN
JOKE ABOUT PACKING COURTS,
WHETHER OR NOT THAT’S ACTUALLY
INFRASTRUCTURE.
BECAUSE THE TRUTH HERE, THE FACT
THAT WE’RE HAVING THIS
CONVERSATION IS ACTUALLY
SOMETHING THAT REPUBLICANS ARE
GOING TO BENEFIT FROM BECAUSE
THIS IS SOMETHING THAT THEY CAN
USE TO GET THEIR BASE TO COME
OUT IN 2022 YOU HAVE GROUPS LIKE
THE JUDICIAL CRISIS NETWORK WHO
ARE ALREADY FUNDRAISING AND
MOBILIZING ON THIS ISSUE, AND
THIS WHOLE CONVERSATION, YOU
KNOW, WITH THE POLITICS IN FLUX
MIGHT END UP HELPING
CONSERVATIVES AND REPUBLICANS,
NOT DEMOCRATS WHO ARE PUSHING TO
GET THEIR PREFERRED REPLACEMENT
ON THE COURT.
ERIC: YEAH.
REMEMBER WHAT HAPPENED WITH FDR
BACK IN ’37.
PHIL WEGMANN, WHITE HOUSE