For some people, the question isn't just how
to pay for college, but is college worth it?
To explore this question, I sat down
Jeff Selingo who wrote College Unbound the Future of Higher
Education and What it Means for Students.
Will you tell us a little bit about your background,
and help us frame this question of, is college worth it,
and the financial return on a college degree?
This question about the value of higher ed
has really come up in recent years, and I think a lot of it
has to do with the economy.
A lot of college graduates, now, are struggling
to launch after graduation.
And so, people are asking, is it worth it?
I'm spending all this money on this idea
of the return on investment.
And then, of course, you get famous people
like Bill Gates, and Mark Zuckerberg,
and Steve Jobs who didn't graduate from college.
Everybody thinks it's like the MBA.
I could play basketball be the next Lebron James,
but that doesn't happen in higher ed.
I mean, if you look at any statistic,
if you just think about higher ed
from the economic standpoint, the return on investment
is incredible.
Right, so, recently, it seems that, in the press,
in politics, and, certainly, from my seat,
people visiting college campuses are
asking this question a lot more, now, than maybe ever before.
How and why has that really emerged here,
in the last few years, in particular?
I think people want to know the differences
between institutions, right?
Because as publics have become more expensive,
it's not a slam dunk.
Well, I'm just going to go to a public,
I'm not going to have to spend much money for my degree,
so it's worth it for that reason.
Private tuition has gone way up in the last couple of years.
And so now, I think, and we have better data
on the differences between institutions,
again on earnings afterwards.
Many states now have public databases
where you can look at earnings by institutions, by degree.
So this idea that higher education
can kind of right the coattails of these national averages, I
think are now over.
And I think parents kind of get that.
And so they want to know the difference
between the University of Georgia,
and Georgia Tech, and Emory, and Georgia State.
Now they can see that, and they want to know,
OK, I'm going to go to college, no doubt about it,
but should I pay 10 more thousand dollars
to go to this institution verses this institution,
is the question I think they're increasingly asking.
How should families go about considering this dollar
value, let's say, verses that?
And at the end of the day, how do they analyze and take
all this into consideration when they're
looking to make that investment, or simply pay for college?
Well, first of all, I think looking solely at earnings
is a big mistake for various reasons.
First of all, the earnings are mostly
self-reported by all these different magazines, and all
these other different websites.
In some cases they are reported by the state,
so they're a little bit more accurate,
but most students have no idea what
they're going to major in when they come to college.
They're probably going to switch at least one time, or twice
according to international statistics.
So you could come to college thinking
you're going to be one thing, and look
at the earnings for that one degree,
and then end up switching.
And so it may not make any sense at that--
--think, at most, more important for parents and students
is to look at the whole range of data points
around college completion.
So what is the graduation rate for students like me?
They differ between men and women,
first generation students, non first generation students.
They differ by major.
Look at that.
How long is it going to take me to graduate
from this institution?
What's my debt level going to be like when I graduate?
What are the job placement rates?
So look at the numbers, at look at our rates,
take that into consideration.
But we should just look at one thing.
And at the end of the day, college is much more than about
getting a job.
And I think that we need to really think
about the value of higher education
in turning us into adults, turning us into citizens,
turning us into thinkers, and that can't be measured easily.
Thinking a little bit about, again, sitting down
with a family and talking through this idea of,
will college pay off, what are the first things
that you would point them to to talk
about experience and return?
I mean, how do they go about having that conversation, both
from a cost standpoint, and then some
of these tertiary benefits, or experiential points,
that you're talking about?
I think that we tend to start looking at colleges pretty
early in high school, which is sometimes dangerous, I think.
You get emotionally attached to a campus
before you ever know how much it's really going to cost you.
And then, by the time you're a senior
and you may get accepted, and maybe not,
and you're maybe devastated over that if you don't get accepted.
Or you're devastated when you get the financial aid offer,
and it's not what you expected.
And now, suddenly, you have to make a real decision
about is it worth it?
So I think the first question that I
think parents and students should consider
is, first of all, how much are we going to really pay?
How much can we really afford to talk about the affordability
of higher education?
And also to look at a range of institutions, publics,
privates, two years, four years, so you're whole emotional state
is not set on one institution, or even
one type of institution.
There's a lot of conversation, right now,
surrounding the community college initiatives
from a political standpoint, et cetera, but also as a strategy.
Lower cost, moving on, ultimately, perhaps,
to a different institution to culminate that degree.
Talk a little bit about what you're seeing in the landscape
out there, surrounding that concept.
I'm a big fan of starting at community colleges.
In fact, if you look at the statistics
now from a Sallie Mae survey about how Americans
pay for college, almost 25% of students at community colleges
come from families making over $100,000 a year.
Back in 2008, that was under 10%.
Right, so we've so many more students coming from families
who have more financial wherewithal saying,
hey, I'm going to start at a community college.
Now there's some dangers of that.
You want to try to complete, you want
to try to get an associate's degree, want to be
able to transfer those credits.
But the nice thing about a community college,
especially if you're unsure about what you want to do,
it's a great place to test out a lot of your career options.
They have, sometimes, smaller classes
for those first year students than a four year college
might have.
So it's definitely an option, but make sure
that, in many cases, the bachelor's degree
is going to pay off more than associate's degree.
So if your alternate goal is to transfer,
make sure your on a path to transfer.
How do you determine, is it worth it in this sense?
I've found the right place, but I'm
going to incur a good bit of debt.
What should be the conversation and the thought
process behind that?
I think there should be a lot of conversation around, what
is an appropriate amount of debt, right?
I think students should have skin in the game.
I think that they take their studies more seriously
if they're taking on some debt, so I really
do believe that students have to take on some debt.
A good rule of thumb has always been
you don't want to take on more debt than the average salary
of a new BPA, which is in mid 30's, I
think, or somewhere around there.
So 30,000, high 20's, probably, is appropriate.
Don't just think about the overall number,
think about what a monthly payment
might look like after college.
In my mind, you don't want to go too high,
because I think it limits your options after college.
I'm working a lot now talking to students who are recent college
graduates, and I'm really amazed at the students who have
a lot of options after college.
They could move to different cities.
They can take different types of jobs.
They could become entrepreneurs, because they
had one thing not hanging over them,
and that was a big debt bill.
So I'm kind of curious, then, just
in wrapping up a little bit, basically, your elevator pitch.
You've got a family here, and they're really
on the cusp of making a decision to go off
to college for their students.
What are the primary things, what
would you tell them that they should
do as they're making a selection of a place,
and the money associated with that?
Well, the first thing is not to stress too much about it.
I think there's a lot of stress over admissions,
getting into the right school.
I actually think institution, college, matters,
but I think students actually matter a lot more.
What a student puts into his or her education
matters a lot more than where they go, at the end of the day.
So I think that's number one, stress less about it.
And then second, look at more than just a couple of options,
right?
Everybody has their safety schools,
but have your safety options.
And what do I mean by that?
Look at two year colleges, look at four year colleges,
look at publics and privates.
I think that everybody kind of focuses
on a subset of institutions, they get so set on those.
And, in the end of the day, there's
not that many differences between them.
I think that they should look at institutions
that are truly different from each other,
and finally decide what's best for them.
Great, well thank you, again.
Thank you, it was great to be.