- Today, we're at the University of Pennsylvania
asking students what they think
about having male athletes who identify as female
compete in women's sports.
UPenn has been at the center of a recent controversy
with a male athlete competing on the women's swim team.
Also, see what happens when we ran into that athlete.
- [Man] Lia!
Hey, can we talk.
- [Interviewer] Do you have a minute?
But this is happening all across the country
and it's a growing national conversation.
Let's see what they think.
Are you okay with being on camera?
- Totally, yeah.
- All right, okay.
(both laughing)
Do you think that men have any physical advantages
over women in sports?
- I'd say in terms of probability,
yes.
There's like a greater population of men
who'd have a greater capability than women,
like at sport.
- Physiologically, they probably are capable
of like putting on more muscle
and just building muscle easier.
And also, you know they just have larger builds generally.
- And I would say in terms of physique,
one thing that I've been under the impression of
is that men have an easier time developing
their upper body strength than women.
So I feel like in some ways, yeah.
- Yes, they do have an advantage
because their physique is different than women's.
So yes, they do have an advantage.
- Physically, I think, yeah.
That have been proven by scientists.
- Just like physically,
I think by men and woman are built differently
and so that's just kind of how it works.
- Genetically, I would say,
like physically, obviously testosterone and all that stuff
that backs up behind the fact that
men are physically stronger than women.
- Well, it's not really a matter of what I say.
Factually, they're taller,
greater bone density, muscle mass,
like what I say doesn't matter.
It's just factually true. (laughing)
- Do you think men's and women's sports
should be kept separate?
- It doesn't matter to me, whoever, guys wanna have fun.
Just do what you want, I guess, you know.
- I think it's better if we keep it separate.
- I don't know if it was safe for women's
if they play like a wrestle versus men.
- I don't think there should be any barriers
to men and woman competing together.
- Oh, good thought.
This one's really being debated right now, I know.
I don't know, honestly.
I don't know enough, yeah. - Okay.
- But assuming that we want women
to be able to win in women's sports,
then yes, of course.
- Did you ever compete in any sports in high school
or any like community sports or anything?
- Yeah, no.
So I did varsity basketball in high school
and then I ran, not ran track,
I was in the field team, so like I threw javelin.
- How would you do against the girls
that were playing the same sport?
- In my league, I was doing, yeah...
better than the other female athletes, yeah.
- I don't know if you know who Allyson Felix is.
She's a famous Olympic runner.
There are 275 high school boys,
who in one year, beat out Allyson Felix's lifetime best.
How do you think she would feel
if there were boys that were displacing her,
if they were sharing the same sport?
- I think... (laughing)
she would probably not feel the best,
obviously working towards her goals
and everything like that,
but so maybe they should be kept separate.
I don't know, yeah.
(laughing) - Okay, okay.
- She has the world record, okay, yeah.
Then God, that would be awful,
then I guess going back to the previous question,
they probably should be kept separate.
- Okay, okay. - Yeah.
(women laughing)
- I think it would be okay.
That's the sportsman's spirit I guess.
- You think it would be okay
for her not to make the Olympics?
- Oh, no, no, no.
That's not true,
but she should make it to the Olympics.
- Okay, so are you saying
that we should keep men's and women's sports separate then?
(laughing nervously)
Because otherwise she wouldn't make it, right?
- If she matches them well she can make it right?
- But they've already beat her.
- Oh.
Then probably yes!
- So the NCAA is allowing
males who identify as female to participate in sports.
How do you feel about that?
What's your initial reaction?
- Yeah, that one's where it's tough.
I'm also trans.
- How do you identify?
- I identify as just gender neutral,
so they pronouns is fine.
- Okay.
- And yeah, that one's really difficult
because there's the inherent like physique differences,
like I was talking about.
- I actually don't really see the problem with that.
I'd say like, you know,
if it doesn't particularly affect you,
like why do you really share an opinion?
- Yeah, I think that when it comes to transgender rights
we should 100% respect that.
- If someone wanted to destroy women's sports,
it would be a great way to do so.
Don't think that's a great thing to do,
but it would get the job done.
- Yeah, I guess then...
God, I just I can't imagine being like
no, you have to compete on the male team
even though you're identifying as female,
that feels wrong.
But simultaneously like the differences between them,
like you were saying that high schoolers beat her records.
I feel like they should be kept in their,
God, I guess gender at birth category.
- Okay. - Yeah.
- Okay, interesting.
There's a UPenn swimmer who is male,
identifies as female,
swam for the men's team for a while,
and then recently joined the women's team
and so now is shattering school records.
- Right.
- Competing against the females that are also on the team.
- Right.
- So how do you think, even just here on this campus,
how do you think those women feel?
- They're probably again, discouraged by that result.
- [Interviewer] And look who walked by
while we were doing interviews.
- [Man] Lia, hey.
- Can we talk?
- [Interviewer] Do you have a minute?
- [Man] Do you have a minute?
- I gotta go.
I gotta go to practice.
- [Interviewer] Okay. I guess practice is important
before a championship meet.
Have you heard about the UPenn swimmer,
male who identifies as female, Lia Thomas.
Who's competing on the women's team, here at UPenn?
- How could I not have.
- I have no idea how the women feel about that on the team.
I'm sure they're supporting of their teammate though
because teammates seems to be showing out
to all the competitions.
- Oh, the men win at women's sports.
Who would've guessed?
- What's your reaction to that?
- I think it's not fair.
- Like seriously, how do you think they feel?
I mean, this is not a hard question.
They're probably not too happy
because they worked really hard for much of their lives,
only to have a competition that's stacked against them.
- It's just a whole lot of...
weird situation sort of.
- It's not fair.
And if we want to destroy women's sports,
which I don't think we do
but if we wanna destroy women's sports,
that would be how to go about it.
- Do you think more people should be speaking up
about this for the women on these teams?
- Yeah, but it's really hard to skillfully do that
without seeming anti-trans.
- There's certainly some pressure against people
speaking out because they'll be canceled, what have you.
- It's a difficult one to call
because we want to be inclusive
and simultaneously we want to respect
people's true identities.
And yet simultaneously,
you just can't deny the physiological advantages.
And so, there's equality for trans people,
which is clearly important,
but there's equality for everyone.
It shouldn't necessarily be one or the other.
And I think with this sporting example,
it seems like it is being a one or the other type situation.
Yeah. - Yeah.
- Sometimes people have to brave personal consequences,
because sometimes people are fired and whatnot
for speaking out about this kind of thing.
- So do you think that they might be
taking opportunities away from women that might be deserving
of those awards and scholarships and opportunities?
- Yeah, definitely. - Okay.
In a lot of ways it scares me because I think that
if we want to have true inclusivity
it's about building bridges between people.
It's about coming together
and figuring out appropriate ways to do that.
And yet, like with cancel culture right now
it's about demoralizing people and saying,
oh you don't have the same beliefs as me.
So you're lesser than.
And I think that's not any way to
change the general American psyche
because that's just fighting with anger
and anger doesn't lead anywhere,
except for to more anger.
That's just my personal opinion.
- Unfortunately, there were a lot
of students that said they were uncomfortable
discussing this topic on camera,
which speaks volumes about the fear people have
when speaking out.
So, most of the students we talked with today acknowledge
that there are undeniable physical advantages that men have
over women, despite testosterone suppression.
While many believe that males who identify as female
male should not be able to compete in women's sports,
others said that they were undecided
and that it's a conversation that needs to be had.
But in sports, it's clear that biology is what matters.
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