- Well, hey guys, I am so excited about this episode
because I have Dr. John Delony here with me.
Hey John. - Good to see you.
- Thanks for coming on.
So one of the big parts of my new book
is talking all about fear.
- Yes. - So I started researching it
'cause I realized this is a huge motivator
for people in life in general.
And on your show, the Dr. John Delony Show,
you talk about fear a lot.
So I've had a couple of experts on the show
talking about fear,
'cause it's so fascinating to me.
'Cause there's like,
I feel like the average person like me
just thinks about fear,
but then there's the psychological aspect.
There's so much to unpack around fear.
So let's just talk about it.
Fear in general.
Good, bad, indifferent.
How do you feel about it, John?
- I feel that fear is really important.
It lets us know that we care about something.
It lets us know that we might be in danger of something.
Fear is a critical, critical feeling.
Without it, we wouldn't get stuff done,
we wouldn't know to run
if there's a bear at our front door, right?
It's so important.
- Yes, so Dr. Chip Dodd was talking about it.
And he, I loved it
'cause he was explaining, it's a gift.
Like it literally is your body's response
that you need help.
That you are in need of something.
And it just says, "hey, okay."
Now where it starts to get unhealthy though,
is when we get into anxiety kind of
on that end of the spectrum.
Right? - Right.
- So talk about the difference between fear and anxiety.
- So anxiety is an alarm system.
It just lets us know not safe.
So I would consider fear
something that is right in front of me.
- Presence like.
- That bear is right there, I got to go.
Anxiety is, that door is shut, there might be a bear.
And then I go look out the window and I can't see it.
The bear might be hiding.
So I'm always, fear of the future.
I'm always looking to the future
and feeling this alarm system going off.
And anxiety sets off when we realize that we're disconnected
when we're lonely.
- Interesting.
- And so it may need two of us
looking for this bear, a third or fourth.
And so when you find yourself alone,
those alarms spin off.
- So these money fears that I write about in the book,
I think for a lot of people could seep into anxiety
- Absolutely. - To that side of it for sure.
So the first fear, I'll talk about six.
We'll talk about three here on this episode for time's sake.
But one fear that I see a lot of people have
is that time is running out.
That we're not able to do what we wanna do with money
because of our age.
Like I was just on The Dave Ramsey Show earlier today
and a lady called in at 60.
And she was like, "I don't think I've ever been retired.
"Like, I'm just now getting out of debt.
"I got to build up Baby Step 3"
and like all of this.
And I could feel that fear in her that time is getting away.
So do you see that a lot?
Just not with money specifically
but just in your line of work with anyone to like,
you're getting to this place where like,
"Oh wow, time's just running out."
- Yeah, time is usually centered on a picture
I had from my life at whatever age.
And so I thought by 45 I would be, fill in the blank.
And usually where it gets really damaging
is either they don't have a picture
or they have a fantasy that's about feelings.
I thought I was gonna feel this way when I was 45.
I thought I was gonna feel this way when I was 60.
And if you talk to sixties with millions of dollars
or with no money, they often have very similar fears.
They often are uncertain about things as well.
Their marriages are still challenging.
Their kids are still doing things that are wonky.
And so a lot of it's just a fantasy.
But the reality is,
there are 60-year-olds that finally do their budget
for the first time and they go, "Oh no."
"I may never be able to retire."
And then it's what you do with that fear
that makes all the difference.
- Yeah, for sure.
No I think that's a good point
because I think what's hard sometimes,
especially in America's culture
is you do have this dream out there
but it's just, it's not realistic.
And to say, yeah, that that may have been a dream
but some dreams that it really financially, or time
or location or season of life or whatever it is
really isn't going to happen.
And not that you can't have any other dreams
or a part of that dream,
maybe you take a piece of it
or a different spin on it,
but there's a level of reality we have to live in.
- That's right.
And I always want to challenge people
where they got that dream
and what they think that dream was gonna give them.
- That's good.
- Because the reality is,
if my dream is to just go to the beach,
you can get food poisoning at the beach too.
And it's hot there and it's gritty.
And we don't think about those things.
We just got to get to the beach and get to the beach
or get this other house or get this relationship.
And the reality is, when you get there, you show up to.
And so if you're anxious and worried and stressed
you're gonna take that with a million dollars.
You're gonna take that with a dream retirement.
You're gonna take that to whereever you end up.
And so the key is to work on yourself.
To recognize your fears
and then deal with them in reality, right?
- Yes.
- Wherever you end up,
like in that same three-bedroom two-bath house,
or with your third lake house, right?
You're gonna go with you there.
- Okay, I've said this so many times,
but you literally hit the nail on the head.
So Winston and I, one of our dreams, long-term dreams
was to build a home.
And so we completed it last year
and I remember during the build process,
we go visit it like every weekend.
'Cause we were just so excited like
oh, they're doing this and this and this,
it's so fun.
But I got to a point and it hit me.
I was like, we got home
and I told Winston and I was like,
"Okay, I have made this house in my head,
"like the finish line.
"Like once we get in this house, it's all gonna be good."
"It's all gonna be good."
And I was talking to him about it
and he was like, "No, Rachel,
"you know in this house,
"like spaghetti is still gonna be on the floor
"from Caroline's high chair."
Like in this house, we're still going to have this issue
if we don't work through it in the present.
Like it is, you are still the same person
that is moving, unless you're changing
and you're evolving and you're all of it.
But I think the point is
don't think that thing is gonna fix it
that dream's gonna fix you, because it's not.
- The worst part about getting a new job
is that you go with you.
Or getting a new spouse or a new home
is that you go with you.
- Okay, yes, and then for the self-awareness piece
if you have that friend in life,
like the new job and the same problem happens
at four different jobs
and they're telling you-
- It's probably you.
- There's one correlation of it.
- Yeah, for sure.
- So the fear of not realizing your dreams,
number one, dreaming is great.
And I talk about it in my new book too.
Like you need to dream.
Have many and boundaries everything's down
and you're just like, what could life look like?
Like that's fun
Let your mind go there.
But as you start realistically implementing those dreams,
making sure they are realistic
and knowing that there may be a time
where the season of life
you're not gonna be able to do that dream,
but find something,
find a different dream
or say no, time isn't out.
I feel like it is,
but if we map it out X, Y and Z, and do these steps,
we actually could get there.
But maybe it's in 10 years instead of two.
And then I think to your point
that you are still the same person.
- Ask yourself, dig into those dreams.
Why is that destination
where I've set my whole life's goals?
- Yes, oh, it's so good.
Another fear is that I'm not capable
of managing my money well.
So I hear this a lot.
Rachel, I'm really bad at math or I'm not smart enough
or I didn't get that degree
or all of you that are in the financial space,
of course you're winning with money
because it's what you do every day.
But the truth of what we teach here
at Ramsey Solutions is that, like the basic money principles
personal finance, like it's really not that complicated.
It's hard to do, but understanding it,
it's pretty simple.
But do you find that negative talk and with a lot of people?
- So I went back to grad school as an old person.
And so I had to do internships.
- What age were you?
- I was in my late thirties.
And I had to do internships again.
And one of my internships was counseling.
I just started meeting with real clients.
And I found really quickly
that they would talk about their marriages,
their intimate lives.
They would talk about their kids.
They would not talk about their money.
And fascinating, I had a second child,
I had to update my will.
And as a part of updating my will,
we went through creating a trust
and where's your money gonna go,
and we need all your accounts.
I didn't want to give him that information.
Because we have this idea around, what are you worth?
What's that number?
And so, why am I saying that?
That fear drives this idea of,
I don't want to even know.
I don't want that's for other people,
that's for smart people.
And so hear me say this, Rachel,
we are in a sliver of history
when we have any answer to any question
ever asked on our telephone.
Being ignorant about a subject is a choice.
Not knowing about the 7 Baby Steps is a decision.
It's not a lack of resources.
It's not a lack of knowing.
There are so many financial coaches and counselors
and pastors and friends.
If you wanna know, you can find out.
And so saying, I just don't know,
that's a choice.
And I hate to say that because it drives me crazy
not my own fears about money make me nuts,
but it's a choice.
- Yeah, to live in that ignorance.
But that ignorance is peaceful for a lot of people.
Like it was kind of that for a little bit,
'cause it's like, I don't even want to look.
I don't look at the bank account.
I'm gonna just live over here.
And do people, do you find that people detach
so much like that they can detach to that extreme
where emotionally they're almost numb to their money?
- One of my favorite books
the title says it all,
The Body Keeps the Score.
- Oh my gosh, my mother-in-law loves that book.
- Yeah, it's a wonderful book by Bessel van der Kolk.
Read that book.
- She's told me about this book.
= But the title says it all.
In your frontal lobe
you can make all sorts of detachment decisions.
I'm just gonna put those bills in the drawer.
I'm just gonna not look at that retirement account.
But the fear part of your brain that sits in the back
that's running all the time
is constantly keeping a tally
of what you do and don't know.
The fears and the distance you're getting away
from real information.
Am I gonna have enough? I don't know.
Am I gonna be able to eat when I'm old?
Can I live there?
That stuff just adds up and it affects your body.
It affects the pain in your body.
It affects your ability to have connected relationships.
It affects everything.
- Everything.
- We think we're hiding and detached, we're not.
(upbeat music)
- As a mom, every day I take precautions
to give my family peace of mind.
It's simple things, like locking the front door,
making sure the car seats are buckled in,
and putting my phone away when I'm driving.
But we don't always think about the bigger things.
Like what if something happened to you or your spouse?
That's why you need term life insurance.
It makes sure your family's taken care of
no matter what happens.
I trust Zander Insurance.
They keep my family protected
and that gives me such peace of mind.
They make things super simple
and find the best options and prices.
To learn more, call Zander today
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Make sure your family has the term life insurance they need.
(upbeat music)
So someone with this fear to say,
I'm just not smart enough.
And either they really believe that
or you've convinced them otherwise.
No, no no,
you can actually become smart enough.
You can read, the information's out there.
But now they have to make that emotional step
to actually look.
How does someone do that?
'Cause to me, I'm like, "Just look.
"Just log into the account and look."
- So this is me being vulnerable here.
And I wanna preface this with,
I've worked with SWAT teams.
I've worked with crisis calls in the middle of the night
seeing the most gruesome, horrible things you can ever see.
But when it came to looking at my money
I had to get somebody that I trust
to literally sit with me
and look through this.
And I'll never forget the moment
I painfully, vulnerably asked, "Am I on a good track?"
"Are we going to have enough?"
And he looked at me and said,
"If you keep going, you can be all right.
And I went, whew, right?
So this is crisis guy.
I think I'm all tough.
I've got all the degrees.
I had to have somebody sit with me.
I had to have a coach.
Just so happens that my old college roommate
is an investing guy.
That's what he does.
And so he sat with me
and walked through the lines and the numbers.
But the reality is that fear is real.
So you either have to just open the account and look
or you got to get somebody to walk along side you.
- To do it.
It's so good.
The last fear we're gonna talk about today
is that my past money mistakes
are going to dictate my future.
Like I can't win with money
because of the mistakes I've made in my past.
And again, I'm usually more on like the numbers side
of this. This book
and all this research has made me dig into like
more of the emotional side, which I love.
So I love all the work that you do
but it's so hard 'cause I look at someone
and I really do believe,
'cause I've heard countless stories of people
getting out of debt
and actually getting control of their money
that have insane amounts of debt,
that have not a lot of income, but they do it.
They do it.
But still there is a truth
that yeah, your past mistakes will affect
how fast you get out of debt.
It's a bigger hole, smaller hole.
So there is some math involved that can seem overwhelming.
So if you have made extremely,
tough, wrong, hard
whatever you wanna put in there
money mistakes in the past,
your hole might be deeper,
but that still doesn't mean you can't get out.
There's always, always hope.
And I can say that
because sitting in my seat for 10 years, I've seen it.
Like I've seen these insane stories where like
how did they do it?
These single moms or this couple that makes 50,000,
they have $200,000 in debt.
And they did it, in like three and a half years.
And you're like, "How did you do that?"
It's just crazy.
So do you find that people's past
keeps them from moving forward?
- Yes, I think it's when people's mistakes
turn into part of their identity.
Not I made some mistakes, but I am a mistake.
Not that I screwed up with money,
but I am a screw up.
And that's harder to overcome than the math problem.
Finding money, working three jobs, grinding it out,
that's just a matter of doing it over and over.
Overcoming "Who am I?"
That's a whole other story.
So when somebody looks in the past and says,
I've done some dumb things with money,
it's literally a resurrection moment.
It's a moment when you say, "I'm done with that."
And I'm gonna surround myself with people and a plan.
I'm gonna move forward.
I have to tell myself on a regular basis,
you're not who you were.
You're going this way now.
And I'm gonna make a new decision every day.
- That's so good.
And I think that identity piece,
and you kind of said that even in the other fear
we're talking about is so true though.
It's like that number is like your score in life,
which it shouldn't be.
Your net worth should not equal your self worth.
But it does so much in our culture today.
Do you find men versus women are different with that?
- Yeah, I think men are trained
from when we were really little
that our worth is based on achievement.
And the greatest achievement we can achieve
in our society is money.
Is that net worth.
It's going back and letting people know
the answer to the question
"What are you worth?" is never a number.
It's always who have you loved
and who has loved you?
That's what your true worth is.
- That's it.
Oh, it's just fascinating between men and women
because yeah, I hear that a lot.
I do, I feel like,
and even some guys they're so vocationally driven
even in conversation.
It's like kind of their go-to and all of that.
So it's just, it's fascinating.
- And busyness and work is a socially acceptable addiction.
We're allowed to be super busy
and to keep being busy and busy and busy and busy
and to skip dinners, and to skip like couple time
after the kids are in bed, to skip weekend events
and family trips,
'cause we're just working, we're busy.
It's a numbing behavior. It's an addiction.
And so all that comes back to fear.
- Man, that could be a whole other video
because Winston was, we were at the beach a few weeks ago
he was reading this parenting book
and it labeled out six things to do
like, literally like if you want successful, healthy kids,
here's six things to do.
One of them is family dinner.
Everything else though involved time, it's all time.
It's all time-based.
And that saying
that like, "Oh, well it's not the quantity of time,
"it's the quality you spend."
He like, "No, like you have to have the quantity
"in order to get the quality."
And that is such a big part of parenting.
- Well, think about-
- Which I digress, but like that's fascinating
- The most precious resource I have on planet earth
is my time.
- Yep. - Yep.
Because once it's gone, it's gone.
And anything I'm expending time into
is time not expended on those relationships.
- Yeah, exactly.
Not to put more on your plate, parents,
but just a little parenting tidbit
but that T-I-M-E. It's big in relationships.
- It's all of it. - It's all of it.
And even spending time overcoming those fears
and putting things in place
so that you don't have these money fears
because they can be overwhelming.
And when they get to that point of anxiety,
then it really does start to be unhealthy.
And so putting it in its rightful place.
- That's right.
- But again, it can be that alarm that
"Hey, something's off. You may need help.
"You may need to do something different."
John, thanks so much for diving into these three fears.
- Thanks for having me.
- And the other three we talk about
in the Know Yourself, Know Your Money curriculum,
that's in Ramsey+.
- So good.
- Oh, we just shot one like a few weeks ago.
So fun y'all.
So make sure to look into Ramsey+
and that Know Yourself, Know Your Money curriculum
will be in there.
And the other three fears as well
will be in the new book
Know Yourself, Know Your Money that comes out January 5th.
So preorder if you haven't yet.
And where can everyone find you, John?
- You can find me on the internet @johndelony,
YouTube, and then the super creatively titled
Dr. John Delony Show
that we launched recently and it's been a blast.
We're having fun.
- The Rachel Cruze Show, the Christy Wright Show.
- We're super creative here.
- We have lots of, lots of, lots of good thinkers.
(laughs loudly)
Well, and the podcast is going great.
- It's lost.
Yeah, all semblance of reality.
- It's so awesome.
- I'm getting some great reviews
so it's a lot of fun.
- Love it, love it.
Make sure to check all that out, you guys.
And thanks again, John.
- Thank you.
(upbeat music)