geoff: As bids for the
Republican presidential
nomination ramp up and new
details emerge about the false
claims of fraud from the last
presidential election, it's time
for the analysis of brooks and
Capehart.
That's New York Times columnist
David brooks and Jonathan
Capehart, associate editor for
the Washington post.
Welcome to you both.
Let's start with the revelation
late last night in the court
filing in the dominion systems
lawsuit against Fox News showing
fox executives and hosts did not
believe the election lies they
were pedaling on television.
David, what you make of the
notion that fox determined
telling the truth and being
straight with its viewers was
not good for its bottom line?
David: I don't know whether to
feel leader not that tucker did
not believe it, that he maybe
has some core that is honest.
At the New York Times and most
other news organizations, we
have two missions, we want to
tell the truth and live up to
the ethics of our profession,
and we want to attract readers
and serve our viewers and make
money for company.
Dealing with that tension is not
unique, doctors and lawyers do
it, but that's how you find a
balance, and you try to hew to
the code of your profession and
do it the best you can and hope
readership will apprecia that.
At fox that is not how it works,
ye those of following the code
of honesty of reporting, which
is the only job, our only job is
to tell the truth and not be
partisan, it is our only job.
If you can't do the basics of
the job, pretty soon you lose
all moral bearing and I think
not everybody at that agency --
a lot of people already left.
But a lot of people who used to
be friends of mine lost all
moral bearing.
Geoff: Jonathan, in ways this
reaffirms what critics of fox
News have believed all along,
that even though it has news in
the title, it is a thin veneer
at rest.
Jonathan: Very thin, is more
like carpaccio.
What this filing shows is the
big lie is indeed a big lie and
people perpetuating it new it
was a lie and yet still went on
air night after night,
perpetuating it, to the
detriment of our country.
They lost their balance, they
lost their moral core, if any of
them had any, and the idea that
tucker Colson says one thing on
air and believes something else
off-camera is deeply disturbing.
Because of what we have seen,
that kind of talk, that kind of
rhetoric led to.
January 6.
We are still dealing with people
who believe the nonsense that
was being spouted on Fox News.
One other thing, I think David
said but it should be pointed
out, the reason there's so much
attention on Fox News isn't just
that they were purveyors of the
big lie, but because it is the
number one cable channel by
multiples.
The majority of people watching
cable television are watching
Fox News, and that's what has
come out in these dominion
papers so disturbing.
Geoff: Staying on the topic of
false claims of fraud, let's
talk about the developments out
of the special grand jury in
Georgia, probing former
president Donald Trump's
election stealing efforts in
that state.
There was an excerpt released
last week of the grand jury
report that recommended
indictments of one or more
people based on perjury.
That was it, that was all we
got.
What is your assessment?
David: Excerpt is generous.
There wasn't much to it.
I think the three investigations
we'll be following for years,
the justice department, southern
district of New York, and
Georgia, and Georgia strikes me
as the most real of them because
trump really said find me those
votes.
I think we should be worried, is
indicting a sitting president on
perjury without the underlying
crime, is that enough?
I have to think about that but I
would have some doubts.
It suggests not much to me right
now.
Geoff: To David's point, Georgia
is where Donald Trump faces some
of the most legal exposure.
What did you make of what we did
or didn't learn this past week?
Jonathan: 1, 1 big thing --
there are two big things.
The first is you had not
politicians, not Democrats or
partisans, not folks like us
saying there was no election
fraud or even experts saying
there was no election fraud.
What you had was a grand jury of
everyday people who were
presented evidence and they made
a point of saying in that
document that we saw no evidence
of election fraud, that the
election was 100% by the book.
Which to the big lie, it blows
that up.
The other thing is, saying there
were people who perjured
themselves before them and not
knowing who they are is a big
deal.
What I want to know is what were
the reductions?
Perjury seems to me a low bar.
I want to know, are there bigger
charges that were recommended
and how many other shoes are
going to drop down the road when
say, the Fulton county D.A.
Decides to indict people?
We don't know what is coming and
I think we should have sort of a
healthy weight and see.
The legal wheels grind slowly
but they grind and I am looking
forward to what comes next.
Geoff: The legal wheels might
grind slowly but political
wheels are moving wiggly in
terms of the 2024 race.
On the Republican side it looks
like we have arrays on our
hands.
What were your thoughts about
Nikki Haley this week?
We heard that she is making the
generational case and the
electability case for her
candidacy.
David: And the personality case,
she is the nice one.
I think people are undercounting
her.
I think she is a good candidate,
I think the story she tells, the
trump story, and in some ways
the Desantis store is a downward
slope story, America used to be
great and we are not anymore.
Her story and Tim Scott's story
is an opera slope story, look at
where we are going.
I think that story has
implications she's more Dutch
implications.
She is much more muscular on
foreign policy.
I also think there's a trumpy
lane for sure and I would put
Desantis and trump in it but
there is a lane of pre-trump
Republican, or trump affected
Republicans who are still more
traditional Republicans.
That lane in 2022 did pretty
well and you might say there are
more Republicans like Mike
dewine than Donald Trump you did
I maintain the belief that there
is another version of that kind
of Republican and I think she
fits pretty well into that lane
along with a bunch of others.
Geoff: Looking ahead a little
bit, or I guess a lot, how did
Democrats contend with a
"Normie" Republican?
Jonathan: I don't think about --
I don't think Democrats are
holding their breath that a
nomie Republican is going to win
them.
I think Nikki Haley, the problem
she has is her flip-flop
situation when it comes to
supporting or criticizing Donald
Trump.
She went to work for him.
Also I think she's going to have
a problem explaining to the mag
a base of the party why she took
down the confederate flag and
her views on race as we talked
about them then.
I thought I heard earlier,
senator Tim Scott talking very
forthrightly about issues of
race and his place in the party
and I think he will do much
better talking about, and must
talk about issues of race in the
Republican party and he will be
able to do so with a lot more
credibility than Nikki Haley can
simply because in her kickoff
speech, she didn't talk about
any of that.
She talked about her immigrant
story but she didn't get into
any of the discrimination that
her family faced or the horrific
story about her father and the
encounter he had of
discrimination.
How is she going to talk about
that on the campaign trail?
That's what I'm looking forward
to, and it goes to happy
warriors can beat out the angry,
more power to them, but they
still have to face a democratic
nominee, who I still think is
going to be the sitting
president and is not to be a
cakewalk for them.
Geoff: I like to have you both
reflect on the news this past
week of senator John Fetterman
checking himself into Walter
reed to receive inpatient
treatment for clinical
depression.
David, you wrote a piece for the
times earlier this month about a
friend of years who struggled
with mental illness.
The headline was how do you
serve a friend in despair?
There was a line in this op-ed
you wrote that hit me in the
chest.
"I am told one of the
brutalities of the illness is
the impossibility of
articulating exactly what that
pain consists of."
Tell me more.
David: I worked with my friend
for three years until he lost
his life to depression.
I have little knowledge of how
to deal with it, and I was like
you have a great life, and that
is the wrong thing to say.
I would give him advice and what
to do, he was a surgeon in
Vietnam and that was rewarding
too.
What I eventually learned and I
hope the friends of John
Fetterman learn, you're not
going to talk them out of it,
you just have to walk with them
through it, he there, be a
witness, to show you haven't
walked away, and you will be
there on the others and that's
all you can do for a friend, but
it is a great service.
Geoff: Jonathan?
Jonathan: One, I sent David and
email the moment I finished
reading his beautiful and raw
piece about his friend Pete and
I encourage everyone to read it.
It is vital.
I think senator federman should
be lauded for not only going to
proactively seek help but making
sure the American people and the
people of Pennsylvania know
about what he has done.
I think down the road we will
see that what senator federman
has done has impacted millions
of people in a positive way.
Geoff: Jonathan Capehart and
David brooks, have a great
weekend.
Great to see you both.