JACOB JO
>>> BUT CARAVAN AFTER CARAVAN IS
FORMING UNVETTED, ILLEGAL ALIENS
TRYING TO FLOOD INTO OUR
COUNTRY, ON YOUR DOLLAR,
OVERKMEMOVER
OVERWHELMING YOUR SCHOOLS,
DEPLETING YOUR RESOURCES AND
ENDANGERING YOUR COMMUNITY
HOMELAND SECURITY HAS JUST
CONFIRMED THAT MEMBERS OF THE
LAWLESS CARAVAN, THE ONE YOU’VE
BEEN WATCHING, COME FROM 20
DIFFERENT COUNTRIES AND INCLUDE
AMONG THEM CRIMINALS AND GANG
MEMBERS, CONVICTED OF CRIMES
RANGING FROM ARMED ROBBERY TO
SEXUAL ASSAULT
>> TWO YEARS AGO, THE TRUMP
ADMINISTRATION LOOKED TO MAKE
POLITICAL GAINS OUT OF THOUSANDS
OF MIGRANTS VENTURING FROM
CENTRAL AMERICAN COUNTRIES TO
THE U.S. SOUTHERN BORDER IN THE
FORM OF A CARAVAN, IN AN ATTEMPT
TO ENTER THE UNITED STATES IN AN
EFFORT TO CURB THE AMOUNT OF
UNDOCUMENTED IMMIGRANTS FROM
CROSSING INTO THE U.S., THE
TRUMP ADMINISTRATION INTRODUCED
ITS ZERO TOLERANCE POLICY, WHICH
BEGAN TO CRIMINALLY PROSECUTE
ALL SUSPECTED MIGRANTS WHO
ENTERED THE COUNTRY ILLEGALLY.
THE RESULT, THOUSANDS OF
FAMILIES SEPARATED WHEN PARENTS
WERE CHARGED WITH UNLAWFUL
ENTRY, REVEALING THAT CHILDREN
WERE BEING KEPT IN CAGES
MSNBC CORRESPONDENT JACOB
SOBOROFF COVERED THIS TOPIC
EXTENSIVELY RIGHT FROM THE
BEGINNING AND IS OUT NOW WITH A
NEW BOOK THAT DETAILS THAT
HUMANITARIAN CRISIS.
IT’S ENTITLED "SEPARATED: INSIDE
AN AMERICAN TRAGEDY.
MIKE BARNICLE, EDDIE GLAUDE JR.,
AND CLAIRE McCASKILL ALL BACK
WITH US, AS WELL
JACOB, CONGRATULATIONS ON THE
BOOK
AS I SAID, YOU HAVE BEEN ON THIS
STORY QUITE LITERALLY FROM DAY
ONE.
AND THE PICTURE YOU PAINT IN THE
BOOK IS A METHODICAL EFFORT BY
THIS ADMINISTRATION, STARTING
JUST DAYS AFTER PRESIDENT
TRUMP’S INAUGURATION IN 2017, TO
PUT IN PLACE A POLICY OF FAMILY
SEPARATION
>> IT’S EXACTLY WHAT I TRIED TO
DO, WILLIE
THANK YOU VERY MUCH.
GOOD TO BE ON WITH ALL OF YO
AND GOOD MORNING TO EVERYBODY.
YOU KNOW, I WAS THERE.
I SAW IT MYSELF WITH MY OWN
EYES, AND WE ALL REMEMBER,
BECAUSE WE EXPERIENCED IT
TOGETHER, THE KIDS UNDER THE MY
MYLAR BLANKETS, SUPERVISED BY
SECURITY CONTRACTORS IN A
WATCHTOWER, SITTING THERE IN THE
CAGES OR THE 1,500 BOYS IN THAT
FORMER WALMART, 250,000 SQUARE
FEET, ALLOWED OUTSIDE FOR TWO OR
THREE HOURS A DAY.
AND WHILE I SPOORNSEXPERIENCED T
REALTIME, AFTER HAVING COVERED
IT, THERE WERE SO MANY QUESTIONS
THAT I STILL HAD
NUMBER ONE, HOW COULD THIS HAVE
HAPPENED IN THE UNITED STATES OF
AMERICA?
A SYSTEMIC SEPARATION.
WHAT PHYSICIANS FOR HUMAN RIGHTS
CALLS NOW, TODAY, TORTURE.
IT MEETS THE CLINICAL DEFINITION
OF TORTURE OF THESE CHILDREN ON
AMERICAN SOIL.
AND THE ANSWER IS, A DELIBERATE
ATTEMPT BY THE TRUMP
ADMINISTRATION TO DO SOMETHING
THAT NO OTHER ADMINISTRATION HAD
EVER DONE BEFORE
AND I BASICALLY WANTED TO GO
BACK AND UNDERSTAND HOW WE GOT
TO THIS POINT.
SO REALLY, THE BOOK STARTING 30
YEARS AGO FROM THE POLICIES OF
THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA
WHEN IT COMES TO IMMIGRATION,
BUT REALLY HOW THE TRUMP
ADMINISTRATION SUPERVISED THIS
IN A WAY THAT NO ONE HAD EVER,
EVER DONE BEFORE AND THE RESULTS
WERE CATASTROPHIC.
WERE AN AMERICAN TRAGEDY
>> AND JACOB, YOU’VE GOT A TON
OF ORIGINAL REPORTING IN THIS
GREAT NEW BOOK, INCLUDING THAT
MEETING I REFERENCED A COUPLE OF
WEEKS AFTER THE PRESIDENT’S
INAUGURATIONS, WHERE THE ACTING
HEAD OF CUSTOMS AND BORDER
PROTECTION IN HIS OFFICE, THERE
WAS A MEETING AMONG THE NEW
OFFICIALS IN THE TRUMP
ADMINISTRATION, WHERE THE FAMILY
SEPARATION POLICY WAS FIRST LAID
OUT.
HOW DID THAT MEETING GO AND WHAT
WAS THE REACTION OF THE PEOPLE
IN THE ROOM?
>> PEOPLE LEFT SHELL SHOCKED
THERE WERE CAREER OFFICIALS.
WHAT THIS WAS, THERE WAS A
MEETING IN THE OFFICE OF KEVIN
McALEENAN ON VALENTINE’S DAY OF
2017
AND I DETAIL IT IN THIS BOOK FOR
THE FIRST TIME
IT WAS A STORY I HAD NEVER HEARD
BEFORE, BUT AS SOON AS I STARTED
DIGGING, EVERYONE POINTED TO
THIS MEETING AS ONE OF THE FIRST
PLACES THAT THE IDEA OF USING
FAMILY SEPARATION AS A DETERRENT
TO BASICALLY SCARE PEOPLE AWAY,
USING CRUELTY FROM COMING TO THE
UNITED STATES WAS RAISED
AND IN THAT ROOM, THE IDEA OF
CELEBRATIONS WERE RAISED
THERE WERE -- IT WAS A
CELEBRATORY TONE IN THIS ROOM,
WHERE PEOPLE WERE LAUGHING ABOUT
DENYING ASYLUM APPLICATIONS FOR
MIGRANTS COMING TO THE UNITED
STATES
AND AS I SAID, OFFICIALS WHO
WERE IN THE OBAMA
ADMINISTRATION, CAREER OFFICIALS
WHO HAD BEEN HOLDOVERS LEFT
SHELL SHOCKED, ARE THE WORDS
THAT THEY USED
AND ALMOST EVERY STEP OF THE
WAY, AS THIS -- PEOPLE HAD TO
BECOME DETECTIVES IN THE OFFICE
OF REFUGEE RESETTLEMENT, IN
HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES, TO
REALLY UNDERSTAND WHAT WAS GOING
ON
BECAUSE THIS WAS HIDDEN BY THE
TRUMP ADMINISTRATION, DESPITE
THE FACT THAT JOHN KELLY CAME
OUT IN MARCH OF 2017 AND
CONFIRMED OUR COLLEAGUE, JULIA
AINSLEY’S REPORTING.
AT THE TIME SHE WAS AT REUTERS,
THAT THEY WERE CONSIDERING THIS
POLICY
BUT FROM THEN UNTIL 2018 WHEN
THIS EXPLODED INTO PUBLIC VIEW,
AT EVERY TWIST AND TURN, THE
ADMINISTRATION DENIED THERE WAS
A FAMILY SEPARATION POLICY
AND ONE OF THE OTHERS THINGS
THAT I LEARNED AND WRITE ABOUT
IN THE BOOK, WILLIE, IS THAT
KERSTEN NIELSEN, WHO FAMOUSLY
SENT OUT A TWEET AND HAD THAT
DISASTROUS PRESS CONFERENCE AT
THE WHITE HOUSE, SAYING THERE IS
NO FAMILY SEPARATION POLICY,
PERIOD, IS THE ONE WHO SIGNED
THE FAMILY SEPARATION POLICY
INTO EXISTENCE, DESPITE THE FACT
THAT SHE WAS WARNED BY JOHN
MITNICK, THE GENERAL COUNSEL OF
THE DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND
SECURITY, IN A MEMO THAT’S NEVER
BEEN REPORTED ON, AT LEAST
PUBLISHED FROM, BEFORE, I SHOULD
SAY, THAT THIS POLICY WAS GOING
TO BE LIKELY UNCONSTITUTIONAL.
THAT IT WOULD BE OVERTURNED ON
THE GROUNDS THAT IT VIOLATED THE
DUE PROCESS RIGHTS, THE HUMAN
RIGHTS OF THESE MIGRANTS COMING
TO THE UNITED STATES
AND SHE WENT FORWARD WITH IT
ANYWAY
>> AND THAT THE POLICY WOULD
BREAK A NUMBER OF AMERICAN LAWS,
TO BOOT.
JACOB, MIKE BARNICLE HAS A
QUESTION FOR YOU
MIKE
>> JACOB, GOOD JOB EVERY DAY,
AND GREAT JOB ON THE BOOK, BY
THE WAY.
IT’S A STORY THAT DESERVES TO BE
TOLD OVER AND OVER AND OVER.
>> THANKS, MIKE.
>> SO TWO QUESTIONS HERE
HOW MANY CHILDREN ARE STILL
BEING HELD CAPTIVE BY THE UNITED
STATES OF AMERICA?
AND DO WE HAVE ANY IDEA THE
PERCENTAGE OF CHILDREN WHO WERE
SEPARATED FROM THEIR PARENTS,
WHO MIGHT NEVER BE ABLE TO BE
REUNITED WITH THOSE PARENTS?
>> I’M GLAD YOU ASKED THAT,
MIKE
YESTERDAY I ACTUALLY SPOKE WITH
THE LEAD LAWYER FOR THE AMERICAN
CIVIL LIBERTIES UNION, WHO I
WILL SAY, IS RESPONSIBLE FOR THE
REUNITING OF THESE CHILDREN.
THEY BROUGHT THE CASE TO FEDERAL
COURT, THAT, BY THE WAY, KERSTIN
NIELSEN WAS WARNED WOULD
ULTIMATELY OVERTURN THE POLICY
WHEN SHE PUT IT INTO EXISTENCE
IN THE FIRST PLACE
AND BECAUSE OF THAT CASE, THE
MISS L. CASE, WAS ABLE TO STOP
THE SEPARATION OF POLICY AND A
FEDERAL JUDGE ORDERED THE
REUNIFICATIONS
YESTERDAY -- I’M TWAUNGALKING ON
AGO, LEE TOLD ME THAT THERE WERE
CHILDREN AND PARENTS THAT MAY
NEVER BE REUNITED BECAUSE THOSE
PARENTS WERE DEPORTED BACK TO
THEIR COUNTRY OF ORIGIN AND THE
CHILDREN ARE TODAY LIVING WITH A
SPONSOR IN THE UNITED STATES
AT THE TIME, WE WERE WARNED THAT
YOU COULD HAVE PERMANENT ORPHANS
BECAUSE OF THIS.
AND THE TRUTH OF THE MATTER IS,
THAT HAS COME TO PASS.
OVER 5,000 -- OVER 5,400 KIDS
WERE SEPARATED AS A DIRECT
RESULT OF THIS POLICY AND IT’S
ALSO IMPORTANT TO NOTE THAT
RIGHT NOW, AS WE ARE ALL TALKING
TO EACH OTHER, THERE’S AROUND
130 KIDS IN I.C.E. FAMILY
DETENTION THAT WERE ORDERED
RELEASED DUE TO A CORONAVIRUS
OUTBREAK IN I.C.E. FAMILY
DETENTION.
YESTERDAY, CHAD WOLF, ONE OF THE
ARCHITECTS OF THE POLICY, AND
YOU CAN READ ABOUT THAT IN BOOTT
BOOK, AS WELL, SAID HE WASN’T
GOING TO DO A JAILBREAK,
QUOTE/UNQUOTE, AND LET THE
CHILDREN AND PARENTS OUT
TOGETHER, WHEN ADVOCATES ARE
SAYING, YOU COULD DO IT NOW.
THEY COULD LET THEM OUT RIGHT
NOW IF THEY WANED TO EDWANTED TO
TRUMP ADMINISTRATION CONTINUES
TO TRY TO USE THIS POLICY AS A
WAY TO SQUARE MIGRANTS FROM
COMING INTO THIS COUNTRY
>>JAYCOBJACOB, I AM ANXIOUS TO T
DEEP DIVE INTO THIS BOOK
I WAS A RANKING MEMBER ON
THEHOME SECURITY COMMITTEE WHEN
A LOT OF THIS WAS COMING TO
PASS
IT’S COMPLICATED
PEOPLE PROBABLY DON’T REALIZE
THE HANDOFF THAT GOES ON BETWEEN
THE DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND
SECURITY AND THE DEPARTMENT OF
HHS.
AND THE FACT THAT THERE’S BEEN
THIS FINGER POINTING BACK AND
FORTH THAT’S BEEN HARD TO REALLY
TAG RESPONSIBILITY
BUT MY QUESTION TO YOU THIS
MORNING IS ABOUT OUR ASYLUM
LAWS
THEY HAVE TRIED TO BASICALLY
BLOW UP THE LAW, AS IT RELATES
TO SEEKING ASYLUM IN THIS
COUNTRY.
HOW WOULD YOU CHARACTERIZE THE
CURRENT STATUS OF THE UNITED
STATES OF AMERICA’S ASYLUM LAWS
UNDER THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION
>> LET ME PUT IT INTO
PERSPECTIVE, SENATOR
AT THE TIME, WHEN WE WERE THERE,
DOWN ON THE BORDER, THERE WERE
THOUSANDS, OVER 10,000 CHILDREN
IN THE CUSTODY OF THE DEPARTMENT
OF HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES
HERE, ATTEMPTING TO SEEK ASYLUM.
THOSE CHILDREN ARE NOT EVEN
BEING LET IN THIS COUNTRY ANY
LONGER IN ORDER TO DECLARE
ASYLUM
UNDER THE COVER OF THE
CORONAVIRUS, THE TRUMP
ADMINISTRATION HAS ESSENTIALLY
EXPELLED UNACCOMPANIED CHILDREN
FROM THIS COUNTRY.
MADE TENS OF THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE
WAIT IN MEXICO UNDER THE NPP
PROGRAM, WHICH PROCEEDED THE
CORONAVIRUS.
BUT ASYLUM, AS WE KNOW IT,
VIRTUALLY NOT AN OPTION FOR MOST
MIGRANTS WHO ARE COMING TO THIS
COUNTRY.
AND I MEAN, THAT’S THE CRUX OF
THIS
WHEN YOU ASK WHERE WE ARE TODAY,
YOU KNOW, THIS WAS TWO YEARS
AGO, IT FEELS LIKE IT WAS A LONG
TIME AGO
THINGS, ARGUABLY, TODAY, ARE
WORSE THAN THEY WERE BACK THEN
CHILDREN ARE NOT BEING
SYSTEMICALLY TORTURED BY BEING
SEPARATED FROM THEIR PARENTS,
BUT THE TRAUMA ENDURES, NOT ONLY
IN THOSE CHILDREN, BUT IN THE
ONES WHO ARE TRYING TO GET INTO
THE COUNTRY TODAY, IN ORDER TO
SEEK REFUGE.
AND I WRITE ABOUT A FATHER AND
SON, WHO I SPENT QUITE A LOT OF
TIME WITH, WHO CAME HERE TO DO
JUST THAT.
AND TODAY THEIR CASE IS IN
JEOPARDY BECAUSE OF THE WAY THAT
THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION IS
HANDLING ASYLUM.
AND THEY HAD TO GO THROUGH
SEPARATIONS ONLY TO GET TO THAT
POINT.
>> JACOB, EDDIE GLAUDE JR. HAS A
QUESTION FOR YOU
EDDIE?
>> JACOB, THANK YOU FOR WRITING
THIS BOOK.
THE WRITING IS POWERFUL.
THE STORIES ARE HEARTBREAKING.
I URGE EVERYONE TO SIT DOWN WITH
THIS TEXT AND READ IT SLOWLY
LET’S PAN OUT FOR A MINUTE,
JACOB.
WHAT YOU’VE LAID OUT, IT
HAPPENED
THE CRUELTY HAPPENED
THE BARBARITY HAPPENED
PAN OUT AND TELL ME WHAT YOU
THINK THIS STORY SAYS ABOUT WHO
WE ARE AS A COUNTRY IN THIS
MOMENT
NOT JUST SIMPLY THE INDIVIDUAL
PLAYERS.
IT’S EASY TO SCAPEGOAT DONALD
TRUMP.
WHAT DOES THIS STORY SAY ABOUT
US, BECAUSE IT’S HAPPENED ON OUR
WATCH?
>> WELL, YOU HIT THE NAIL ON THE
HEAD
AND THE FIRST THING I WOULD LIKE
TO SAY, PROFESSOR, YOUR BOOK IS
SITTING JUST OUT OF CAMERA FRAME
ON MY DESK, AND I’M GRATEFUL TO
YOU FOR SENDING IT, AS WELL.
WHAT DOES IT SAY
WHAT DOES IT SAY ABOUT WHO WE
ARE AND WHERE WE ARE
THAT THIS IS AMERICA
THIS IS THE UNITED STATES OF
AMERICA.
AND IT’S BEEN A LONG TIME COMING
TO THIS POINT WHEN WE TALK ABOUT
REFUGEES
DETERRENCE-BASED IMMIGRATION IS
A POLICY THAT HAS EXISTED IN THE
YOOITS AT LEAST SINCE THE
CLINTON ADMINISTRATION
PREVENTION THROUGH DETERRENCE
WAS THE OFFICIAL POLICY OF THE
UNITED STATES BORDER PATROL IN
1994
THE IDEA WAS TO MAKE PEOPLE GO
THROUGH MORE DANGEROUS AND
DEADLY ROUTES TO BASICALLY
CHOOSE BETWEEN POTENTIALLY
LOSING YOUR LIFE OR GETTING
HARMED AND MAKING IT INTO THE
UNITED STATES OF AMERICA
AND ADMINISTRATION AFTER
ADMINISTRATION HAS USED SOME
FORM OF THIS DENSER-BASED
IMMIGRATION POLICY AND HERE WE
ARE TODAY, IN THE TRUMP
ADMINISTRATION, THAT HAS TAKEN
IT TO A PLACE WHERE WE HAVE
NEVER SEEN BEFORE.
I DO WANT TO SAY, THOUGH, IN
REPORTING IN THE BOOK, AND IN
TALKING TO PEOPLE WHO I DIDN’T
KNOW AT THE TIME, THERE ARE
PEOPLE INSIDE THE GOVERNMENT WHO
ARE FIGHTING BACK.
PEOPLE LIKE COMMANDER JONATHAN
WHITE AT THE DEPARTMENT OF
HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES, AT
THE TIME AT THE DEPARTMENT OF
HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES, WHO
FOUGHT AT EVERY TWIST AND TURN
WITH HIS COLLEAGUES IN ORDER TO
MAKE SURE THAT THESE POLICIES
DID NOT HARM CHILDREN.
AS CLINICAL SOCIAL WORKERS AND
CHILD CARE PROFESSIONALS DO,
THEY PUT THE BEST INTERESTS OF
THE CHILDREN FIRST
AND AT THE TIME, I KEPT SAYING,
THERE IS NO PLAN TO REUNITE
THESE CHILDREN
THIS IS A SLOW-MOTION DISASTER
AND I HAVE TO SAY, IN SOME
MEASURE, I WAS WRONG
BECAUSE THERE WERE PLANS
THERE WERE PLANS BY PEOPLE WHO
CARED.
THERE WERE PLANS BY
COMPASSIONATE PEOPLE WITHIN OUR
GOVERNMENT, PUSHING BACK AGAINST
THESE TYPE OF POLICIES
BUT THEY WERE STYMIED BY THE
TRUMP ADMINISTRATION
THIS WAS EVALUATED TO SENIOR
LEADERS IN THE DEPARTMENT OF
HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES,
INCLUDING SCOTT LLOYD, WHO RAN
THE
INCLUDING SCOTT LLOYD WHO RAN
THE OFFICE OF REFUGEE
RESETTLEMENT
HIS FIRST INSTINCT WHEN KATLYN
DICKERSON’S EXPLOSIVE "NEW YORK
TIMES" EXPOSE WAS PUBLISHED WAS
TO GET RID OF THE LIST OF
CHILDREN THAT THE DEPARTMENT WAS
KEEPING OF SEPARATED KIDS AND
PARENTS.
AND THEY WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN
ABLE TO REUNITE THOSE CHILDREN
WERE IT NOT FOR THAT LIST BEING
PRESERVED BY PEOPLE LIKE JIM DE
LA CRUZ, A CAREER OFFICIAL
INSIDE THE DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH
AND HUMAN SERVICES
SO WHILE THIS PAINTS A DARK
PICTURE OF AMERICAN IMMIGRATION
POLICY OVER THE YEARS, PROFESSOR
GLAUDE, THERE ARE PEOPLE INSIDE
WHO, DAY IN, DAY OUT, ARE
FIGHTING TO MAKE SURE THAT WE’RE
PUTTING THOSE MIGRANTS AND
REFUGEES FIRST
>> THE NEW BOOK GROUNDED IN
YEARS OF HIS OWN REPORTING
"SEPARATED -- INSIDE AN AMERICAN
TRAGEDY.