Welcome to the show, my friend.
Thank you for having me, Trevor.
Good for you to be here.
It's exciting to have you on this side of the world.
Um, I remember when I first saw your work.
It-it enthralled me, it captured me,
and I loved it as a fellow South African.
But then when I saw it blow up on the world stage,
it did something I-I never thought I could feel,
because art has always felt
like it's been, like, a European thing.
-Yup. -You know? It's like, "Oh, that's art."
-Yup. -And then it's like, "The Africans make nice things."
It'd be like, "Oh, this is cute. Where did you pick this up?"
You know?
But-but you're starting to shake that.
You're starting to change all of that.
You just came back from your own showing in Paris,
you know, where people...
-Like, your artworks all sold... all sold out. -Yeah.
Who is Nelson Makamo, and-and why do you think
you're experiencing this success in the art world?
Um, wow.
I mean, I don't even know where to start.
-Um, I mean, art has always been part of me. -Right.
Uh, growing up...
I mean, I grew up...
Um, I was born in a small town in South Africa.
Um... it was quite interesting, because growing up,
-toys were never actually an option as a black child. -Right.
So you had to create your own toys.
So my foundation of art started from there.
I started actually making toys from clay.
Um, and then, from there,
and starting from primary...
Um, it was quite interesting,
because, I mean, South Africa, as you know, in the '80s,
-post-apartheid... -Yeah.
...um, were limited in terms of choices.
-Art was never an option. -Yes.
So, as a child, um, you were told
to either become a doctor.
-You know, you become a teacher, a lawyer. -Yes.
That's what your parents hoped you would do.
That's what my parents were actually hoping for me to do.
Yeah, and drawing is not an option
for, like, a young black child.
-That's exactly that. -Yeah.
-But I was... -As a job.
I was fortunate enough to have a mother
who truly believed in my talent,
-that from an early age, she truly supported me. -Right.
So I had a strong supporting, um...
-um, figure from an early age. -Right.
And but it was also quite interesting,
because she never saw that as something
that I would also make a living out of it, as well.
You've made more than just a living now.
I mean, you've gone
from being a successful artist in South Africa
to a world-renowned artist.
I mean, you know, people come to South Africa
to view your art, to purchase your art,
and I mean, everybody, you know, from...
you know, from-from-from...
-Alicia Keys through to-to Oprah Winfrey. -Yes.
I mean, I remember Oprah telling the story
-of how she came to your building. -Yeah.
And you have a building
in the heart of Johannesburg in South Africa,
and there's no elevator.
Actually, um, that was quite of...
one of the most interesting stories, because,
um, I was on the fourth floor.
-Yes. -There was no elevator.
-Right. -So she had to take the steps
from the first... from the ground floor
-to the fourth floor. -Right.
She wasn't happy at all.
'Cause I... my favorite one's, Oprah, Oprah tells it,
she's like, uh, "Oprah doesn't climb stairs for anybody."
Oprah was like, "No," she's like, "I'm not gon...
Where is this guy? Why is he not coming with the art?"
And Nelson's like, "No, this is where the studio is."
But-but she came to you, and she fell in love with the art,
and... as many people have.
Why do you think it connects
with so many people from different walks of life?
Because so many people would think of African art
-as African art, but it's, like, no, this is art, -Yeah.
and you happen to be South African.
I think, like, one of the privileges that I actually had
was, um... I mean, I studied in a community-based college,
-Right. -and, um, I applied for residency,
um, which, um, I went to Italy for three months.
I think having to have an experience
of outside South Africa, that has actually helped me
to sort of view things not only from a...
an African perspective, but to actually look at things
-from a global perspective as well. -Right.
I started creating work more like a language,
a universal language. in a way that, um,
it was quite interesting,
because the first thing that I did
was to use a child as a subject in my work.
Yeah, we've seen some of those amazing pictures.
You've got these images of children,
and I think on the cover of Time,
-they called it "the art of hope." -Yeah.
You know, it... because it-it-it...
showed South Africa and African-ness
in a very different way.
For so long, we've seen art that makes it...
-it's all about poverty, it's all about pain, -Yeah.
it's all about suffering, and here these images,
you can... they're open to interpretation,
but they feel hopeful, they feel young,
they feel like children who live in Africa.
And the scale of them is also huge.
I mean, we have some... some pictures of you,
you know, like, working on some of your artworks.
You-you have giant, giant pictures that you create.
Why the children? Why their eyes?
Why the glasses?
-What does that symbolize? -Um, you know, I think
another thing that I actually realize as time goes,
I realize that, um, you know, uh, art...
I mean, when you look at art, it doesn't matter.
I mean, I got inspired by Picasso,
which he was non... non-African.
-Right. -Then you start realizing that...
And ironically, Picasso was inspired by Africans.
That's-that's exactly there as well,
but then you realize that there was something there
that says that as people,
we don't necessarily, in terms of culture,
I mean, the way we live, the world today,
we all sort of aspire more or less to the same thing, as well.
-Right. -Um...
I had to use a reference that was too close to me,
which is of the child, an African child,
and the reason why I also did that was the fact that
if you look at how the image of an African child
was portrayed globally, it was portrayed either hungry,
disadvantaged and all of that as well,
but if you'd been to Africa and you realize
that none of those things... it's almost like a taboo.
-Yes. -And, um...
I had to go back and actually reintroduce
how... the way we are, as Africans.
To actually say that we are more or less the same
as any other person in the world as well.
-We're inspired... -Right. Hardships, success,
-et cetera. -And also inspired by beauty.
-Right. -We follow culture.
We love music.
Um, today when you go to Africa,
you have a child who's got a smartphone.
That actually tells you,
in terms of where we are as people as well.
My thing and my view and...
how I've actually also drawn the inspiration from the world,
the advantage of traveling has made me to also look
-at my environment as a source of inspiration as well. -Right.
And why did I actually also had to blow them...
and make them so gigantic,
is to actually bring them up close and personal.
And when I did that, I realized that it actually also created
a dialogue, that as human beings we experience the same thing.
We experience the same joy.
We all sort of have-- We go through
the same experiences in life as well.
We go through the same political,
we go through the same struggles as well.
So as a young African
who actually had been given an opportunity
to sort of like rewrite history,
and re-introduce our image to the world,
I had to go back and look at myself and say,
"If I was--
"If I were to sort of represent ourselves globally,
what language will I use?"
I had to actually use a universal language.
I had to use a child
who is close to me as a point of reference,
but that child is like any other child in the world.
We don't actually choose to be born
in certain spaces in this world.
Actually, for me, it was such a blessing to be born
on a continent that has so much history
that allowed me to actually tell that history,
what is actually currently happening as well.
Take that very same inspiration
that I've actually grown globally,
combine it and putting it in-in-in an artwork as well.
That's fantastic. And if you, if you look at your art now,
you're travelling the world,
you're selling your artworks in different countries.
People are learning the name Nelson Makamo.
You're a part of South Africa's growth.
I mean, you're investing in the inner city,
you're changing the image
of what the inner city is all about.
What is your dream for art, African art,
and African artists as a whole?
My dream is, I mean, more than anything else,
I'm an independent artist.
My journey, um...
I had to actually go against art.
I had to go against the normal way,
because usually an artist, to get to a certain point,
especially with exposure and all of that,
you actually have to have someone picking you up,
-like galleries as well. -Right.
-And you've done that on your own. -I've done that on my own.
because of the privilege of having technology of today.
Which, actually, what it does, that it simplifies--
Actually, for me, my dream was
for people to have access to my work.
And, um, for me,
to actually be featured on the Time,
especially on the cover, that was the only medium
that I could actually wish to have,
because it allows each and every person
to have access to my work as well.
With that, I actually take that as an advantage to say,
"What can I do back at home?"
We're actually setting up spaces.
Those spaces is like actually building bridges
-for young artists. -Right.
To actually see that it's actually possible
to actually make it,
and to actually present yourself globally
without really having to rely
on the same system that has always been there.
Because African art has always been under looked,
because of those who have always been playing
as the main players, the gatekeepers,
as maybe the Time some people who actually use as well.
But today when you actually think about art,
it's not as intimidating as it used to be before.
Because there was only certain elite individual
that used to actually have access to art.
And so your dream now is to create a world
where young African artists can access the world
with their art as opposed to somebody telling them
how their art should be accessed.
That's exactly that as well, and...
It's amazing, man.
Thank you so much for being on the show, Nelson.
-Oh, thank you. -Good having you out here.
Appreciate you and everything you do.
For more information about Nelson's work,
go to NelsonMakamo.com.
Nelson Makamo, everybody.