>>> ANYBODY WHO PICKS UP A GUN, ANYBODY WHO FIRES A MISSILE MUST
REALIZE THAT THE LAW IS ALIVE AND NOT IN SLUMBER AND
ACCOUNTABILITY IS ABSOLUTELY ESSENTIAL.
>> THAT WAS THE CHIEF PROSECUTOR OF THE INTERNATIONAL CRIMINAL
COURT SPEAKING TO RUSSIAN LEADERS AND EVERY RUSSIAN
SOLDIER ON THE BATTLE FIELD IN UKRAINE.
A WARNING THAT NO ONE SHOULD BELIEVE THEY CAN GET AWAY WITH A
WAR CRIME. MOMENTS LATER, THE RUSSIAN
FOREIGN MINISTER SPOKE TRYING TO UNDERMINE THE ICC ACCUSING IT OF
BEING A PROPAGANDA OPERATION. WARNING TO OUR VIEWERS, SOME OF
THE IMAGES YOU'RE ABOUT TO SEE ARE DISTURBING.
AND HERE WITH ME NOW IS THE CHIEF PROSECUTOR FOR THE
INTERNATIONAL CRIMINAL COURT. THANK YOU FOR JOINING ME HERE
TODAY. THE RUSSIAN FOREIGN MINISTER NOT
ONLY IN HIS REMARKS WENT AFTER THE ICC BUT ALSO CONTINUED TO
CALL THE IMAGES COMING OUT OF UKRAINE, THE IMAGES OF
ATROCITIES FAKE. WHEN HE CALLS THE ATROCITIES IN
BUCHA STAGED. DOES THAT MAKE YOUR JOB HARDER?
>> NO, THE TRUTH IS THE TRUTH. PARTIES CAN MAKE THEIR OWN
STATEMENTS BUT I'VE BEEN TO BUCCHA.
THOSE ARE REAL PEOPLE. WE HAVE TO INVESTIGATE HOW DID
THEY DIE AND IF CRIMES WERE COMMITTED AND WHO IS
RESPONSIBLE. THERE IS COUNTER NARRATIVES AND
NARRATIVES, TRUTH, DISINFORMATION MIXED AND WE HAVE
TO SEPARATE IT SO WE GET DISTILLED PURE WATER FROM WHAT
COULD BE A VARIETY OF INFORMATION.
>> WHAT YOU'RE GETTING AT IS WITH THIS WAR, ANY WAR THERE ARE
POLITICS INVOLVED AND WHAT YOU CANNOT BE INVOLVED WITH IS THAT.
EVEN WHEN YOU'RE ATTACKED PERSONALLY.
>> ABSOLUTELY. CHURCHILL SIDE A LIAR GETS HALF
WAY AROUND THE WORLD BEFORE THE TRUTH GETS A CHANCE TO PUT ITS
PANTS ON. THE TRUTH WILL OUT IN THE JUICE
DI -- JUDICIAL SYSTEM.
>> YOU'VE BEEN TO UKRAINE THREE TIMES NOW.
OF ALL OF THE DESTRUCTION AND BRUTALITY AND SUFFERING THAT YOU
HAVE SEEN AS A PROSECUTOR IN GENERAL, WHAT IS THE IMAGE IF
THERE IS ONE THAT STICKS WITH YOU MOST, AT LEAST SO FAR FROM
UKRAINE? >> I CAN'T SAY WHICH ONE BECAUSE
EVERY LOCATION I GO TO ONE IS STAGGERED NOT ONLY BY THE
DECEMBER IN DESTRUCTION OF HOLSPITALS AND
SCHOOLS, THEY ARE EITHER CROSSING THE BORDER WITH PLASTIC
BAGS OR SEPARATED FROM LOVED ONES AND HAVE THIS HOPE A BETTER
DAWN WILL COME AND INTERNATIONAL INSTITUTIONS AND THE RULE OF LAW
WILL BRING SOME JUSTICE AND SOME AREAS WE HAVEN'T SET FOOT IN.
IF WE LOOK AT THE INFORMATION WE RECEIVE, THE ALLEGATIONS OF
CRIMES AGAINST CHILDREN TARGETED IN HOSPITALS OR ALLEGATIONS
REGARDING SCHOOLS BEING HIT, THESE OF COURSE LEGALLY ARE A
PRIORITY OF ME AND OF COURSE, THE HARM THAT WOULD CAUSE OF
THOSE CHILDREN NEEDS TO BE INVESTIGATED.
ALLEGATIONS OF CHILDREN BEING TRANSFERRED INTO THE RUSSIAN
FEDERATION TERRITORY. THESE ARE PRIORITIES.
ALL OF THOSE MUST FOCUS OUR ATTENTION AND IT CAN'T SIMPLY BE
THE PEOPLE WE HAVE THE PRIVILEGE OF SEEING BUT ACTUALLY MORE SO,
THE INDIVIDUALS UNSEEN BUT WHOSE LIVES ARE IN VERY PRECARIOUS
SITUATIONS. WE NEED TO PROTECT THOSE
INDIVIDUALS WE DON'T SHOW ON OUR TV SCREENS.
>> THAT'S ACTUALLY SOMETHING YOU SPOKE TO THE SECURITY COUNSEL
ABOUT IS FORCED DEPORTATIONS OF UKRAINIANS INCLUDING CHILDREN
AND SOMETHING THAT IS DEEPLY UNSETTLING SOME OF THESE
ALLEGATIONS THAT WE HAVE HEARD OF.
A STATE DEPARTMENT OFFICIAL IN JULY, ACTUALLY ESTIMATED THAT
ABOUT 1,000 UKRAINIAN CHILDREN IN THE WAY SHE PUT IT HAD BEEN
STOLEN AND GIVEN TO RUSSIANS. JUST KIDNAPPED.
THAT IS A WAR CRIME. BUT IS THERE ANYWAY TO GET THESE
CHILDREN BACK? DO YOU BELIEVE THAT THESE
CHILDREN WOULD BE ABLE TO BE BROUGHT HOME?
>> THAT'S AN ISSUE THAT I CAN'T SPEAK TO AT THE MOMENT.
WE KNOW CERTAIN TRANSFERS ARE TAKING PLACE.
BUT AT THE END OF THE DAY, MY FOCUS IS THE BREAD AND BUTTER
MATTERS THAT HAVE CRIMES BEING COMMITTED AND IF SO, WHO IS
RESPONSIBILITY. THAT ITSELF MY ACT AS A CATALYST
FOR CONSEQUENTIAL ACTS THAT STATE OR THE RUSSIAN FEDERATION
OR UKRAINE AND OTHERS WAISH TO TAKE AND INTERNATIONAL BORDERS
AND THEY ARE GIVEN UP FOR ADOPTION.
THIS IS AN ISSUE THAT COULD GIVE RISE TO THE JURISDICTION OF THE
COURT AND I'M CERTAINLY PRIORITIZING THE INVESTIGATIONS
IN THAT RESPECT. >> IT JUST SEEMS PARTICULARLY
HARD TO FOLLOW THAT LINE, TO FOLLOW SOME OF THESE CHILDREN
ARE BABIES AND THAT SEEMS PARTICULARLY HARD TO FOLLOW AND
TRACK. >> IT IS.
CONFLICT IS UGLY. CONFLICT IS AWFUL.
IT NOT ILLEGAL BUT WHAT IS I ILL
ILLEGAL, DELIBERATELY TARGETING THE MOST VULNERABLE.
IT'S A CRIMINAL OFFENSE TO TARGET A HOSPITAL OR SCHOOL OR A
CHILD OR WOMAN OR A MAN, THE ELDERLY, ANY NON-COMBATANT, ONE
DOESN'T HAVE A LICENSE TO KILL WITH IMMUNITY.
THIS IS WHY WE HAVE THE LAWS AND THESE ARE THE LESSONS OF HISTORY
AND THIS STRATEGY IS AS INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY, WE KNOW
T THAT.
WE KNOW NEVER AGAIN TO THE HOLOCAUST AND SEE YET AGAIN, YET
AGAIN, YET AGAIN, THESE CRIMES ARE TAKING PLACE.
THIS IS A MOMENT TO SHOW THAT THE LAW CAN BE ACTIVE ON THE
FRONT LINES. WE'RE TRYING TO OUT MORE NIMBLY
IN UKRAINE AND OTHER LOCATIONS AROUND THE WORLD.
>> THEY'RE IN THE MIDST OF WAR. TYPICALLY WAR CRIMES
INVESTIGATIONS OCCUR AFTER A WAR.
YOU'RE THERE IN THE MIDDLE OF A WAR.
YOU SAID THAT OF COURSE, PRESENTS CHALLENGES BUT ALSO
OPPORTUNITIES. WHAT ARE THOSE OPPORTUNITIES?
>> ACCESS TO EVIDENCE BEFORE IT IS INTERFERED WITH.
BEFORE EVIDENCE IS LOST OR DESTROYED.
THERE ARE ALWAYS ALLEGATIONS FROM THE DEFENSE OR FROM STATES
THAT ALLEGATIONS MAY BE -- EVENTS MAY BE STAGED.
WELL, IF WE'RE THERE AT THE TIME, SOONER AFTER THAT
TERRITORIES FOR EXAMPLE ARE FREED UP, WE CAN GET THE BEST OF
IT AND IT'S POSSIBLE AND THAT IS ALWAYS OF THE GREATEST UTILITY
TO JUDGES. >> IS THERE MORE THE UNITED
STATES COULD DO TO HELP IN EFFORTS TO UKRAINE?
>> I THINK THERE'S A LOT THE U.S. CAN DO.
I THINK ONE OF THE ISSUES THAT HOPEFULLY MAY GET BIPARTISAN
SUPPORT IS SOME CLARIFICATIONS OF THE AMERICAN SERVICES
PROTECTION ACT BECAUSE AT THE MOMENT I CAN'T INTERVIEW A
UKRAINIAN FOR EXAMPLE ON THE TERRITORY OF THE UNITED STATES.
IT'S ILLEGAL UNDER THE AMERICAN LEGAL SERVICES PROTECTION ACT.
THERE IS THE U.S. ADMIN ADMINISTRATION, THERE ARE
INITIATIVES UNDERWAY TO TRY TO CLARIFY THE SCOPE TO WORK BETTER
AND HELP GET SOME HELP FROM THE UNITED STATES AND OTHER
COUNTRIES, AS WELL AND I SHOULD SAY I'VE ALSO WRITTEN TO THE
RUSSIAN FEDERATION. I HAVE WRITTEN ON THIS TRIP TO
MEET FOREIGN MINISTER LAVROV SO I'LL KEEP TRYING TO ENGAGE WITH
ALL PARTIES. >> ANY RESPONSE?
>> NO RESPONSE FROM THE RUSSIAN FEDERATION.
>> AS YOU MENTIONED, AGAIN, AND AGAIN AND AGAIN, THESE
ATROCITIES CONTINUE ALL OVER THE WORLD.
ONE PLACE IN PARTICULAR THAT I FOLLOWED VERY CLOSELY IS THE WAR
IN SYRIA. THIS MONTH THE SDF, SYRIAN
DEFENSE FORCES ALLIED WITH THE UNITED STATES, THEY DID -- THEY
COMPLETED A HUGE RAID IN THE REFUGEE CAMP IN NORTHEASTERN
SYRIA AND SOME 300 ISIS OPERATIVES WERE ARRESTED FOUND
HIDING IN THE CAMP. IT HAS LEFT ME THINKING THERE IS
REALLY NO WAY OR VERY LIMITED WAY TO ADMINISTER JUSTICE THERE
WHEN THERE IS REALLY NO JUDICIAL SYSTEM IN SYRIA AT THE MOMENT.
IS THERE ANY SPACE FOR THE ICC IN THAT KIND OF UNGOVERNED
SPACE? IS THERE A SPACE FOR THE ICC TO
STEP IN THERE? >> I THINK IT'S A CRITICAL
QUESTION. I MEAN, I FRLWAS THE FIRST SPEC
ADVISOR AND I WAS IN IRAQ FOR THREE YEARS.
AND THIS ISSUE OF THE NEIGHBORING LOCATION IS ONE
KNOWN TO REPRESENT A MASSIVE HUMANITARIAN AND LEGAL AND
NATIONAL SECURITY CHALLENGE. SO I THINK THERE ARE THINGS WE
CAN DO. ALREADY WE HAVE THE COURT
JURISDICTION AND RELATION TO THE NATIONALS OF STATE PARTIES THERE
ARE OTHER OPTIONS IF IRAQ FOR EXAMPLE WISHED TO MAKE A
DECOLORATION, TO ACRE C ACCEPT JURISDICTION OF THE COURT LIKE
UKRAINE, WE CAN HELP WORK WITH THE IRAQIS AND MECHANISMS, AS
WELL. WHAT I'M CONVINCED ABOUT AND
USED TO GO ALWAYS TO THE SECURITY COUNSEL AND SAY THE
ISLAMIC STATE IS THE MOST UNISLAMIST STATE AND ONE UTILITY
OF THE LAW IS TO PUT ON SPOT LIGHT AN IDEOLOGY TO CONFRONT
AND DISSECT IT AND IT'S VERY IMPORTANT TO SHOW KILLING
INDIVIDUALS, DENYING PEOPLE FREEDOM OR WORSHIP ARE NOT ONLYBASICS
CRIMINAL OFFENSES IN THE CONTEXT WE LOOKED INTO BUT CONTROVERT
THE BASICS OF ISLAM THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR YOUR WORK