Announcer: Welcome back to The David Pakman Show.
David: Welcome back to the show. Joining us is Matt Lewis, senior contributor for The
Daily Caller, editor of the new book "The Quotable Rogue: The Ideals of Sarah Palin
In Her Own Words". Wow, our audience will be scared of what her own words may actually
be. Thanks for joining us, Matt.
Matt Lewis: Hey, thank you for having me.
David: I want to get your take from your side of the political spectrum on what the motivation
might be behind some of the proposals we've seen from Republicans both in the U.S. House
and also in State Houses. And specifically the ones I'm talking about are John Boehner
calling the redefinition of rape a high priority, over 10, maybe even 14 attempts to repeal
or defund the Barack Obama health care reform bill, locally in different states, we've seen
the proposition of maybe enabling the death penalty for miscarriages, so on; you know
all of these that I'm talking about. What do you see as the root core of why are politicians
motivated to propose these things?
Lewis: I think on principle, actually. I think that it's fundamental beliefs in policy that
conservatives believe will make a better America. Some of it sounds bad, and that's why in some
cases they lose politically, like let's take, for example, the issue you brought up about
redefining rape. Sounds horrible, and it's the kind of thing that liberals I think win
on because it sounds bad and the liberal argument really is the bumper sticker, and I can tell
you the conservative argument, but it's going to take a couple minutes for me to do so.
I actually happen to agree, or at least, you know, philosophically understand the conservative
argument, but it's something that requires a bit of explaining and nuance. And so, in
politics, as you know, if you're explaining, you're losing.
David: Absolutely. And we have discussed on the show previously, individually, with that
particular issue, what is the point of view from the right that is causing them to bring
that up, but I tend to look at politics as number one, I think every aspect of politics
can be bought and sold, I seem to find corruption everywhere I look even when I'm not looking
very hard. So when I see things like this being proposed, sometimes I wonder is it really
that the people, the politicians getting behind this personally morally feel like it's correct,
or is it maybe just the back end of a quid pro quo from some socially conservative group
that they've received money from? Is it something... do they feel indebted to someone? Is it really
just to create publicity? I mean, are those things... what do you think about those possibilities?
Lewis: Well, I think all of the above are true. I think that in some cases, you have
politicians who firmly believe in defending life and this is part of that, as you know,
if you went through, you know, intellectually went through why some conservatives are making
this argument. And I-- and you know, I've been in this business long enough to get to
know some politicians and actually, you know, not just at a meeting, but get to know them,
maybe even have a couple drinks with them. And so over time, you can tell who the kind
of phonies are and who the true believers are, and there really are politicians on the
right and the left who really believe the stuff that they fight for.
On the other hand, there certainly are some politicians who are supporting this agenda
not because they believe in it, but because other people believe in it, because some donors
believe in it, because some of the voters really believe in it. So obviously there are
some people who firmly, you know, support this, but yeah, but clearly, there are some
politicians who are doing it for political purposes. I think that's true on both sides
of the aisle on almost every issue.
David: And then why is it worth even getting involved with a lot of these proposals that
so clearly are just not going to pass? Is that side... is it political posturing? Is
it to later say that they sponsored x, y, and z bill? I mean, what's the advantage?
I don't know that I get it.
Lewis: Well, and there's several... very complicated stuff. I mean, you know, governing is messy
and complex, and I think there's several reasons why. Number one, you have people who are maybe
a little bit quixotic who don't know that things aren't going to pass. And I think there
are politicians and activists alike who fit into that category, activists who demand you
try to pass something even if it can't pass because they believe it's right. I think that's
fine and noble.
I also think that there is a strategic argument. It's like any negotiation, you always want
to ask for more than you think you can get. And so sometimes if you, you know, if I'm
selling a car and I ask for $1000, I might settle for $500. And so sometimes asking for
a lot and being shot down and then coming back for half a loaf can be a smart strategic
move. Losing...
David: That I get.
Lewis: Yeah.
David: That I get, but the idea of proposing things which so clearly are... if they were
to pass, right, they would really in many of these cases put women in danger, I find
them to be attacks on women, I find them to be attacks on, you know, for all the talk
about protecting unborn children, I find a lot of these proposals actually go the opposite
way. Isn't there... is it responsible to, as a starting point for a negotiation, propose
something that puts women at risk?
Lewis: Well, if you don't mind, let me back up and, you know, I know you said before that
you guys have talked through this, but let me, let me just as quickly as I can make what
I think is the conservative argument for this. So conservatives are being accused of wanting
to redefine rape as only forcible rape, and the reason why we're in this predicament is,
you know, first of all, a lot of people, a lot of conservatives, but not just conservatives,
are pro-life. And not only are they pro-life, but they really believe in protecting the
unborn, and they believe that abortion is murder.
The problem is that politically speaking, passing legislation, there are always exceptions,
and so some people are going to say well, but what if the life of the mother is involved,
or what if incest, and so for political reasons, to get things passed, to compromise over the
years, most pro-lifers and most politicians at least have said well, we're going to be
in favor of outlawing abortion except in cases of rape and incest.
Now, the problem is, though, intellectually, if you're going to argue that abortion is
always murder, how can you then, intellectually, say but murder's OK if it was rape, right?
So we've got these compromises, and as I said, politics is messy, and what happens is, you
know, you get down to a point where you have people who essentially could say, and remember,
we just had a story a couple months ago, Julian Assange, the Wikileaks guy who was accused
of rape, and it was an interesting case. You had... he had had consensual sex with a woman,
and then I guess... I think later he had sex with her again without using a condom. She
called that rape. So some pro-lifers would argue that well, if you're going to allow
an exception for rape, then you might as well allow all abortions to be legal because any
woman could...
David: Yeah...
Lewis: Any woman could say well, yeah, but I was raped. So that's the theory, at least.
David: OK, but... let me, let's... we... I follow it. We have very limited time. The
rebuttal, the obvious rebuttal, to me, to that is that listen, we know that there is
only a conviction on six percent of rapes as a combination of difficulty in trying those
cases, women being afraid to come forward, so on and so forth. I believe that that redefinition
that you point out, the logic behind from the Republican side would only worsen that
situation. And I wish we had more time, I know that there's two sides to it, but I do
appreciate you coming on.
Lewis: Sure.
David: Matt Lewis, senior contributor for The Daily Caller. Great to talk to you.
Lewis: Good talking to you.
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