CONTRIBUTOR FOR NBC NEWS, PEGGY NUNEN.
>> PEGGY, THE SUPREME COURT IS HEARING A CASE TODAY.
I'VE BEEN WAITING FOR THIS CASE TO BE HEARD FOR SOME TIME.
I THINK IT'S ONE OF THE MOST IMPORTANT POLITICAL CASES THE
SUPREME COURT HAS HEARD IN A LONG TIME.
IT FEEDS INTO THIS DISCUSSION. AND THAT IS THEY'RE GOING TO BE
HEARING ARGUMENTS ON GERRYMANDERING.
AND I THINK IN PART, IF PEOPLE WANT TO UNDERSTAND WHY THE GUN
CONTROL DEBATE IS SO EXTREME IN THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
ESPECIALLY, ALL THEY HAVE TO DO IS LOOK AND SEE HOW THOSE
DISTRICTS HAVE BEEN CARVED UP, AND IT DOESN'T MATTER WHETHER
90% OF AMERICANS WANT INCREASED BACKGROUND CHECKS TO KEEP GUNS
OUT OF THE HANDS OF TERRORISTS, IN THESE CARVED OUT DISTRICTS.
ENOUGH OF THE VOCAL CONSTITUENTS ARE POWERFUL ENOUGH THAT MEMBERS
FEAR THEIR V VOTES IN PRIMARIESN A LOT MORE THAN THEY FEAR THE
NRA NOT GIVING THEM 5,000 OR $10,000.
>> YEAH, AND YOU HAVE SEEN HOW SOME OF THOSE CONGRESSIONAL
DISTRICTS ARE SHAPED AND ARRANGED STATE BY STATE.
REALLY WEIRD CONFIGURATIONS. CERTAIN VOTING BLOCKS ARE DOING
CERTAIN THINGS. IT CREATES A CERTAIN POLITICAL
STAY SIS SO MOST INCUMBENTS FEEL SAFE.
I'M GLAD IT'S BEING DISCUSSED. I HAVE NO INSIGHT OVER WHETHER
THIS IS A FEDERAL OR STATE MATTER, BUT CERTAINLY, IT'S BEEN
ON THE MINDS OF MANY PEOPLE. IT DOES KEEP THINGS FROZEN.
IT ALMOST MAKES YOU THINK OF THE WORD CARTEL AS IF EACH OF THE
PARTIES HAS A CERTAIN CARTEL. LET ME JUST THROW IN, THOUGH,
JOE, I HAVE OBVIOUSLY AS A CITIZEN WHO LOVES AMERICA, I
HAVE COMPLETE SYMPATHY FOR AND FOR EVERYBODY WHO IS EXTREMELY
UPSET, EVERYBODY COMING FORWARD WITH IDEAS, I NEVER THINK IT'S
THE WRONG TIME TO TALK ABOUT GUN CONTROL.
I ALWAYS THINK IT'S A FINE TIME. >> IF NOT NOW, WHEN?
>> THAT HAVING BEEN SAID, WE'VE ALL BEEN THROUGH THIS SO MANY
TIMES. I'M STARTING TO THINK THAT THERE
ARE SOME PROBLEMS THAT CANNOT BE SOLVED.
THEY CAN BE MANAGED. AND I THINK WHAT WE'VE BEEN
GOING THROUGH WITH ALL OF THIS GUN VIOLENCE THE PAST FEW
DECADES IS SOMETHING WE CAN MANAGE BETTER.
MY OWN THING, VERY MUCH ON MY HEART THE PAST FEW YEAR IS
PLEASE, WE NEED MORE MENTAL HEALTH SERVICES.
THE MAN WHO DID THE SHOOTING IN VEGAS DOESN'T FIT THE NORMAL
DEMOGRAPHIC. NORMALLY IT IS YOUNG MEN WHO ARE
UNSTABLE WHO HAVE BEEN VEERING TOWARD VIOLENCE AND ACTING ODD
FOR A LONG TIME. NEIGHBORS SAY HE STUCK TO
HIMSELF, HE WAS THIS, HE WAS THAT.
THERE ARE UNTREATED MENTALLY ILL PEOPLE IN AMERICA WHO NEED MORE
INTERVENTION ABOUT WHOM NOTHING CAN BE DONE UNTIL THEY HURT
SOMEONE. THAT'S MY CONTRIBUTION FOR
TODAY. >> AND ALL THE PEOPLE SAID,
AMEN. >> YEAH.
>> WE CERTAINLY AGREE WITH THAT. >> CONGRESSMAN HIMES, IT'S
WILLIE GEIST. I WANT TO ASK YOU TO GET
SPECIFIC. THESE ARE ALL DIFFERENT, THESE
CASES FROM NEWTOWN TO ORLANDO TO CONGRESSMAN AND SCALISE AND YOUR
COLLEAGUES BEING SHOT IN A BASEBALL FIELD IN VIRGINIA
EARLIER THIS YEAR. LET'S TALK ABOUT THE ONE IN
FRONT OF US BECAUSE IT JUST HAPPENED.
WHAT IS THE SPECIFIC LAW, YOU THINK, IN AN IDEAL WORLD, THE
CONGRESS THERE, WHERE YOU'RE STANDING COULD PASS THAT WOULD
HAVE STOPPED WHAT WE SAW. THIS MAN PASSED BACKGROUND
CHECKS. HE DIDN'T FIT THAT MENTAL
ILLNESS PROFILE FROM WHAT WE KNOW RIGHT NOW.
SO WHAT WOULD YOU RECOMMEND IN TERMS OF LEGISLATION THAT COULD
HAVE STOPPED THIS SHOOTER? I THINK YOU DO HAVE TO BE
SPECIFIC IF YOU WANT TO BE CONSTRUCTIVE ABOUT WHAT TO DO TO
STOP THESE. >> YEAH.
AND LOOK, IT'S A FAIR QUESTION, BUT I DON'T WANT THE POINT TO
DRIFT AWAY FROM THE FACT THAT IF WE JUST FOCUS ON WHAT WOULD HAVE
STOPPED THIS PARTICULAR SHOOTER WHICH WAS AN INCIDENT WHICH WAS
PRETTY DIFFERENT FROM THE GUN VIOLENCE THAT TAKES 90 LIVES
EVERY SINGLE DAY, TWO-THIRDS OF THOSEE DEATHS BEING SUICIDES, W
CAN GET DISTRACTED. LET'S SAY THERE ARE THINGS WE
NEED TO DO TO STOP THAT KIND OF THING AND THINGS TO DO IN
CHICAGO AND THERE'S MENTAL HEALTH AND OTHER THINGS.
LOOK, THIS IS A WEIRD CASE, BECAUSE WE DON'T -- IT'S HARD
FOR US TO UNDERSTAND. IF THIS GUY HAD BEEN A MUSLIM
RADICAL, WE'D KNOW HOW TO THINK ABOUT IT.
IF IT WAS A DEEPLY DISTURBED INDIVIDUAL, WOOERD KNOW HOW TO
THINK ABOUT IT. WE DON'T KNOW HOW TO THINK ABOUT
THIS. HE APPEARS TO HAVE HAVE HAD
SOMETHING LIKE THREE DOZEN GUNS, SOME OF WHICH WERE MODIFIABLE TO
WREAK THE KIND OF HAVOC MARINES HAVE ON AN ENEMY BEACH.
WE OUGHT TO LOOK AT THE FACT THAT IT APPEARS AMERICAN
CITIZENS CAN BUY DOZENS AND DOZENS OF WEAPONS.
>> SOME OF WHICH ARE MILITARY. >> I CAN FOCUS ON THIS INCIDENT.
CAN I HELP YOU OUT HERE, HOW? AND ASK WHY A GUY HAS THREE
DOZEN GUNS THAT ARE SUITABLE FOR --
>> AN ARSENAL. >> SUITABLE FOR RUNNING ON THE
BEACHES OF NORMANDY AND SHOOTING NAZIS.
DON'T TALK TO POLITICIANS. TALK TO ANY LAW ENFORCEMENT
OFFICER IN AMERICA WHO IS RESPONSIBLE FOR PROTECTING YOU,
YOUR FAMILY, MY FAMILY, THE FAMILIES OF CHICAGO IN THIS
COUNTRY, AND ASK THOSE LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICERS WHETHER
THEY THINK THAT GUY OR ANY CIVILIAN SHOULD EVEN HAVE ONE.
THEY WILL TELL YOU. BRATTON WILL TELL YOU NO.
RIGHT? >> YES.
>> NO. >> AND CONGRESSMAN, THAT'S WHAT
I MEANT BY GETTING SPECIFIC. ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT A BAN ON
SEMI AUTOMATIC RIFLES, FOR EXAMPLE?
>> YES. I THINK JOE IS ABSOLUTELY RIGHT.
I THINK HE'S RIGHT IN HOW LAW ENFORCEMENT THINKING ABOUT THIS.
LAW ENFORCEMENT IS SOMETIMES ON THE OPPOSITE END OF THE WEAPONRY
THAT SHOULD BE IN THE HANDS OF THE MILITARY.
I UNDERSTAND THIS IS TOUGH. HOW DO YOU DEFINE AN ASSAULT
RIFLE. I GET THAT.
IT'S HARD. >> LET ME STOP YOU THERE.
IT IS TOUGH, AND THE GUN LOBBY WILL ALWAYS GO THERE.
NO MATTER WHAT YOU SAY, BAN ASSAULT RIFLES, OKAY, BAN SEMI
AUTOMATIC WEAPONS. THEY SAY NOW YOU'RE TRYING TO
TAKE MY PISTOL. KEEP IT SIMPLE.
IF A CIVILIAN HAS A WEAPON THAT CAN SHOOT THROUGH POLICE ARMOR,
GO THROUGH THE POLICEMAN'S BODY, GO THROUGH ANOTHER PERSON'S BODY
AND KILL BOTH OF THEM AT THE SAME TIME, I THINK MAYBE WE CAN
DEFINE THAT AS SOMETHING THAT CIVILIANS DON'T NEED.
>> THAT'S A GOOD START. >> AND LET THEM DEFINE THEIR WAY
AROUND THAT ONE, OR IF THE HOUSE GETS THEIR WAY, AND THEY TRY TO
MAKE SILENCERS THIS WEEK, IF THEY TRY TO MAKE THOSE MORE
READILY AVAILABLE FOR CIVILIANS, SO POLICE OFFICERS DIDN'T KNOW
WHERE THE SHOOTING WAS COMING FROM --
>> ARE WE REALLY TALKING ABOUT THIS?
>> IS THAT SOMETHING THAT AMERICANS NEED IN.
>> THERE'S NO WAY. >> AND CONGRESSMAN, LET'S GO TO
THE HUMAN NATURE ASPECT OF THIS. HOW DO YOU FEEL AS A RESIDENT OF
CONNECTICUT WHOO LIVE LESS THAN 25 MILES FROM NEWTOWN?
HOW DO YOU FEEL ABOUT MINGLING WITH EVERYBODY DAY, SLAPPING
THEM ON THE BACK, SMILING AND SAYING HELLO EVERYDAY TO PEOPLE
IN THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES WHO HAVE OVER THE YEARS
REPEATEDLY MADE A DELIBERATE DECISION TO VOTE TO DO NOTHING
TO STOP THE TRANSPORTATION OF RIFLES MEANT FOR MASS KILLINGS
TO LEGISLATE COMMON SENSE THINGS, TO TRY TO PREVENT OR
DWINDLE THE NUMBER OF MASS KILLINGS.
HOW DO YOU FEEL ABOUT HANGING AROUND WITH THEM?
>> WELL, I'VE BEEN CLEAR ON MY FEELINGS.
I SAID AFTER ORLANDO I'M NOT PARTICIPATING IN MOMENTS OF
SILENCE IN ROOMS WHERE YOU COULD FIX THE PROBLEMS.
BUT IT'S WORSE THAN THAT. RIGHT NOW SOMEWHERE IN THIS
BUILDING THE LEADERSHIP IS TRYING TO FIGURE OUT WHAT THE
DECENT INTERVAL OF TIME IS BETWEEN THE HORRIFIC MURDERS AND
WHEN THEY CAN BRING FORWARD THE BILL JOE IS MAKING REFERENCE TO
THAT MAKES IT EASIER FOR PEOPLE TO GET SILENCERS.
SO ANSWER THE QUESTION, I NEED TO WORK WITH THEM AND I WANT TO
DO THAT AND THAT'S MY JOB. BUT THE AMERICAN PEOPLE NEED TO
START HOLDING THEIR REPRESENTATIVES ACCOUNTABLE FOR
NOT DOING A COUPLE OF THE THINGS WE KNOW HAVE MASSIVE SUPPORT IN
THIS COUNTRY. >> CONGRESSMAN, THANK YOU FOR
BEING WITH US. AT THIS POINT I FEEL LIKE I HAVE
TO MAKE MY REGULAR DISCLAIMER. I'M A SECOND AMENDMENT GUY.
I BELIEVE HELLER WAS PASSED PROPERLY.
THERE ARE QUITE A FEW PEOPLE IN THIS AUDIENCE THAT DISAGREE WITH
ME. I THINK THE SECOND AMENDMENT
MEANS WHAT IT MEANS. AMERICANS ICANS HAVE A RIGHT TO
AND BEAR ARMS, TO HAVE WEAPONS IN THEIR HOME AND BE ABLE TO
PROTECT THEIR FAMILIES. I DON'T THINK IT MEANS WHAT
LIBERALS THINK IT MEANS. IT MEANS YOU HAVE A RIGHT TO
KEEP AND BEAR ARMS, BUT I ALSO BELIEVE IT'S THE WEAPONS ARE NOT
NEEDED. AFTER NEWTOWN SO MANY OF MY
FRIENDS FROM NORTHWEST FLORIDA, SO MANY PEOPLE WHO VOTED FOR ME
MEMBERS OF THE NRA SAID I JUST DON'T NEED THOSE WEAPONS TO GO
OUT AND KILL DEER. YOU KNOW WHY YOU NEED THOSE
WEAPONS? YOU KILL HUMANS.
THAT'S WHAT THEY'RE USED FOR. >> HOW DO YOU CONVINCE THE
OUTLIERS THAT -- >> WHAT DO YOU MEAN?
ROND REAGAN AGREED WITH MY POSITION.
NOT ONLY ON THIS. GEORGE W. BUSH AGREED WITH THIS
POSITION. RONALD REAGAN BELIEVED ASSAULT
WEAPONS SHOULD BE BANNED. GEORGE W. BUSH BELIEVED ASSAULT
WEAPONS COULD BE BANNED. THE EXTREME.
THIS IS 10% OF THE POPULATION. >> HOW DO YOU CONVINCE THEM IN
THE CONGRESS AND THE HOUSE AND SENATE IF YOU LIKE YOUR GUN, YOU
CAN KEEP YOUR GUN, IT'S OKAY, BUT YOU'RE GOING TO STOP BUYING
THE AR 15s? >> I WOULD NEVER SAY IF YOU LIKE
YOUR GUN, YOU CAN KEEP YOUR GUN, BECAUSE THEN THEY'D GO, OH,
BARACK OBAMA. >> THAT'S WHAT THEY'RE REFERRING
TO. >> LET'S BE HONEST ABOUT THIS.
I DON'T KNOW IF YOU AGREE WITH THIS OR NOT, PEGGY.
BILL O'REILLY TWEETED YESTERDAY THIS IS THE PRICE OF FREEDOM.
NOPE. ACTUALLY, I HAVE SEEN IT
FIRSTHAND.
CAMPAIGNING. I'VE SEEN IT FIRSTHAND.
YOU'VE PROBABLY SEEN IT FIRSTHAND AS WELL.
THERE'S A SENSE OF PARANOIA THAT'S GINNED UP BY THE NRA TO
SAY THEY'RE COMING TO GET YOUR GUNS.
AND IT'S BEEN THAT WAY -- BACK IN 1994 PEOPLE WOULD SAY THEY
WERE GOING TO COME GET MY GUNS AND PRY THEM OUT OF MY COLD,
DEAD HANDS. I SAID LISTEN, I'LL TELL YOU
WHAT. THEY'RE NOT GOING TO COME GET
YOUR GUNS. YOUR COLD DEAD HANDS, YOU CAN
JUST SHAKE THEM OUT. YOU'RE GOING TO BE FINE.
>> I WOULD LET ME THROW OUT A QUESTION.
HOW MANY AMERICANS HAVE -- WE KNOW THERE'S JUST ABOUT ONE GUN
FOR EVERY AMERICAN IN 2009 WHEN THE POPULATION WAS 310 MILLION.
WE HAD THAT MANY GUNS. HOW MANY AMERICANS HAVE AK-47
LIKE ASSAULT RIFLE LIKE REPEAT GUNS, I'M SORRY, I FORGET THE
PHRASE, SEMI AUTOMATIC AND AUTOMATIC?
HOW MANY HAVE THEM AND WHY? WHAT IS -- WHAT ARE THEY AFRAID
OF? I DON'T THINK WE CAN SO EASILY
SAY THEY JUST WANT THEM TO KILL OTHER AMERICANS.
MOST OF THEM DON'T. >> LAST HOUR I CAN TELL YOU --
>> THERE'S A REASON. TELL ME.
>> WHENEVER I GET INTO THESE DEBATES AFTER NEWTOWN WITH MY
SECOND AMENDMENT FRIENDS, PEOPLE WHO HAD BEEN ON THE SAME SIDE OF
ME FIGHTING, SO THE SECOND AMENDMENT WOULD MEAN WHAT IT
MEANS, YOU WOULD JUST KEEP PUSHING.
WHAT DO YOU NEED THEMM FOR? >> WHY DO YOU WANT THEM?
>> BECAUSE THEY NEED THEM IN CASE THE GOVERNMENT COMES.
AND THEY THINK THAT THEY'LL HAVE TO USE THEM TO PROTECT
THEMSELVES AGAINST GOVERNMENT. TO WHICH I SAID TO ONE PERSON, I
SAID MY FRIEND, LET ME TELL YOU. LET'S JUST BREAK THIS DOWN.
HE FINALLY ADMITTED. HE WAS THE FIRST.
I SAID LET ME BREAK THIS DOWN FOR YOU.
IF THAT DAY COMES, THEY'RE NOT GOING TO KNOCK ON YOUR DOOR.
THEY'RE GOING TO PUT A DRONE OVER YOUR HEAD, AND IT'S GOING
TO FLOAT THERE FOR THREE DAYS, AND THEN THEY'RE GOING TO GIVE
YOU THREE OR FOUR DAYS TO LET YOUR CHILDRENILDREN, YOUR WIFE
OUT. >> I HAVE THESE CONVERSATIONS
TOO. >> AND THEN YOU COME OUT WITH
YOUR WEAPON, YOUR AIR 15, AIM IT UP AT THE DRONE.
THEY'LL MELT YOU. THIS IS THE LUNACY OF IT.
NOW, IF THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT WANTS TO GET YOU, THE FEDERAL
GOVERNMENT IS GOING TO GET YOU, YOUR LITTLE GUN IS NOT GOING TO
DO ANYTHING. >> MY SENSE OF IT IS, I DON'T
HEAR THAT SO MUCH, BUT WHAT I DO HEAR IS THERE IS A SENSE THAT
SOCIETY IS COLLAPSING. THE CULTURE IS COLLAPSING.
WE'RE COLLAPSING IN CRIME. THE WORLD IS COLLAPSING.
CRAZY PEOPLE WITH BAD HAIRCUTS HAVE NUKES INFORMAL EVERYTHING
IS GOING BAD. TERRORISM, ET CETERA.
THEY WANT TO BE FULLY ARMED ON THEIR HILL AT HOME.
AND YOU CAN SAY THE SAME THING YOU DO, BUT YOU'LL LOSE.
BUT THEY'RE AMERICANS AND THEY WANT TO GO DOWN FIGHTING.
>> I HEAR THAT TOO. THEY WANT IT FOR THE APOCALYPSE.
THEY WANT IT SO WHEN PEOPLE COME TO GET THEIR FOOD SUPPLIES.
>> FOR WHEN THE GRID GOES DOWN. NOT TO TURN DIRE IN THE MIDDLE
OF THE MORNING BUT THEY'RE FRIGHTENED.
>> WHAT ARE THEY FED? LOOK TO OUR POLITICS OVER THE
LAST THREE DECADES. IT'S THE POLITICS OF FEAR.
NOT THE POLITICS OF HOPE. YOU GROW YOUR CANDIDACY ON FEAR.
>> AND SURVIVAL. >> BE AFRAID OF THE IMMIGRANTS,
THE GAY, THE CULTURE BEING STRIPPED FROM YOU.
SOMEONE IS ALWAYS OUT THERE LURKING TO TAKE SOMETHING FROM
YOU, DEFEND YOURSELF. >> AND FOLLOWING UP ON WHAT
PEGGY SAID, MAYBE PEGGY -- >> WHICH BROUGHT US TRUMP.
>> A LOT OF THINGS BROUGHT US
TRUMP. >> MAYBE THIS IS THE NET RESULT
OF PEOPLE GROWING UP OVER THE PAST 17 YEARS AND SEEING ONE
FAILURE AFTER THE OTHER. 1999 IMPEACHMENT.
2000. THE RECOUNT WHERE WE CAN'T EVEN
ELECT A PRESIDENT THE RIGHT WAY. 2001, 9/11 AND NOT GETTING THAT
RIGHT. 2002 WMDs.
2003 IRAQ. 2005 KATRINA.
2006 THE MELTDOWN IN IRAQ. 2008 THE MELTDOWN OF THE STOCK
MARKET. I COULD CONTINUE.
I DON'T NEED TO. WHERE CONFIDENCE IN THIS
GOVERNMENT HAS BEEN SHATTERED AND PERHAPS THAT'S WHAT LEADS TO
THE PARANOIA YOU'RE TALKING ACT. THEY'RE NOT GOING TO PROTECT ME.
I HAVE TO DEFEND MYSELF AND MY FAMILY.
>> YEAH, AND YOU CAN ADD SOCIETY THINGS LIKE OUR FAMILIES
COLLAPSE. THERE ARE DRUGS AROUND.
I AM A MAN AND I CAN'T FIND A JOB TO SUPPORT MY FAMILY.
THERE'S ALL SORTS OF STUFF THAT I THINK IS ROYALING US.
A GENERALIZED FEAR THAT YOU SEE SOME OTHER COUNTRIES GLOAT ABOUT
THAT MAYBE AMERICA IS ON THE WAY DOWN, NOT THE WAY UP.
WHEN PEOPLE ARE THINKING THAT, THEY ARE AMERICANS.
WE GREW UP IN A CERTAIN CULTURE. THEY WILL GUN UP.
>> THE PLACE IN THE WORLD HAS BEEN LOST.
>> I THINK A LOT ABOUT THE REASONS FOR THESE THINGS.
>> I THINK FOR BILL O'REILLY, THERE IS NO FREEDOM IN FEAR.
THAT'S WHERE THIS TURNS AND THEY'VE PUSHED THIS FEAR AGENDA
TO A POINT THAT PEOPLE ARE PARALYZED TO GO OUT OF THEIR
HOUSE. THEY'RE PARALYZED TO GET ON THE
INTERNET. >> THAT'S THE PRICE OF FREEDOM?
GREAT. >> IF THAT'S THE PRICE OF
FREEDOM, WE HAVE NOTHING. >> AND GLENN BECK USED TO SELL
SURVIVAL CDs. WE JOKED ABOUT IT --
>> FUNNY, BUT IT'S NOT. >> SURVIVAL SEEDS.
>> THIS HAS BEEN FED TO A GROUP OF AMERICANS NOW FOR 30 YEARS.
>> YEAH. AND DEFINITELY FOR A GOOD
DECADE. >> THESE ARE THE COSTS.
I'M NOT SAYING WHAT HAPPENED YESTERDAY WAS THE COST.