geoff: The college board today
released the official framework
of a new advanced placement
course on African American
studies.
It comes after criticism from
Florida governor Ron Desantis
and other Republicans.
Last month Desantis said Florida
would not articulate in the new
ap course, saying the initial
cirriculum violated the state's
so- called "Stop woke act" that
limits teachings on race in
public schools.
>> This force on black history,
what is one of the lessons
about?
Queer theory.
Now, who would say that an
important part of black history
is queer theory?
That is somebody pushing an
agenda on our kids.
When you look to see they have
stuff about intersectionality,
abolishing prisons, that's a
political agenda.
Geoff: We are joined now by
David Coleman, chief executive
officer of the college board and
Brandi waters, director of ap
African American studies for the
college board.
Welcome to you both.
David, the college board revised
its framework for this ap
African-American studies course,
effectively downplaying or
removing some of the same
information Ron Desantis and
other Republicans criticized.
Did the college board change the
course of offering to address
Republicans' concerns?
>> The revisions were complete
far before this public
discussion.
The revisions were based on two
sources, feedback from
professors and students and
teachers in the pilot course,
and returning to principles that
are true of every single ap
course.
I know this has become
controversial and political, so
I want to be more than clear, in
no ap course whether it is ap
English, U.S. History, Japanese
culture, Spanish culture, do we
require a specific list of
secondary articles that all
students must read.
We returned to that principle.
It meant the secondary articles
that were experimented
with, for example, skip Gates's
a on 40 million ways of being
black, were not included as part
of the course framework.
That has been politicized now,
even though that is what we do
in every ap course.
We also added an in-depth
project where students can
explore secondary sources.
And I want to be clear, students
and teachers have the freedom to
explore any secondary sources
they wish, including all that
are under discussion.
We need to stop mandating a
specific list of them, as we
don't do in any ap course.
Geoff: So to press the point,
last month, Ron Desantis, the
Florida board of education said
they rejected the course because
it included things like a focus
on the black reparations
movement, and black queer
theory.
Looking at the course
provisions, lessons on those two
specific things are gone, and
what is included instead --
black conservatism is now
offered as an idea for a
research project.
There are people who will look
at that as a coincidence.
>> To be clear, what has been
added in the course -- to set
the record straight on the
matter of gay America -- is, a
new section that explores Bayer
reston and the struggles he had
as a leader.
And another leader who
contributed to brown versus
board of education as well as
later victories.
There is a new section on black
lesbians and how they did not
feel comfortable in either the
white-led women's movement, or
the male black led civil rights
movement and the new patch they
formed.
I am just trying to say that
there is remarkable engagement
with black life and how it
intersects in the gay community.
I believe we are having a deep
misunderstanding as to what is
in the course.
So I ask you.
Again, he pointed out one
project on black conservatism.
There is also a project on
intersectionality.
Questions of black experience.
There is also a topic on gay
life in black communities, just
like you are asking me about.
This course truly allows
students to inquire deeply into
reparations, another topic, you
may have noticed, on reparations
that allows students to dig
deeper into the reparations
movement.
Geoff: This course has been in
development more than a decade,
as I understand it.
What was the overarching goal in
creating it?
>> We started to explore this
course over a decade ago and it
was conceptualized as an
African-American history course.
We talked to a lot of groups to
see if there was interest in
moving forward with that course.
Our research showed that in the
last 10 years, this field has
exploded.
So in the last few years, it is
really when we shifted to
reimagining the course as one
that reflects this field, this
interdisciplinary field based in
rigorous source analysis and
argumentation.
So it is not just a history
class, but it does aim to leave
parts of history, geography and
the arts altogether, so that
students walk away with that in
interdisciplinary land.
Geoff: We are at the moment
where the teaching of race and
equity has become a political
minefield.
What is your response for those
who say that teaching
contextualized lessons about
this country's racial history,
that that is inherently
political?
You heard Ron Desantis say it is
not education, it is
indoctrination.
>> I look to the framework,
which focuses on these primary
sources.
What is great about this course
is we are connecting student
resources they would not find
until they get to college.
They have an opportunity to look
at things from the amistad case,
slave codes, actual written
document.
It's important that students are
actually looking at materials
from history, looking at works
of art, and coming to their own
conclusions.
>> I just hope you look at it
and see the sweeping and
in-depth account of slavery and
its cruelties, which is bracing,
to be honest, and fierce.
And as it goes through unit two
and unit three, nothing is
historically voided.
So if it is true that what
political leaders have said, and
I fear it might be, has a child
classrooms and made teachers
worry about can they teach the
truth, can they include gay
Americans -- this course says,
yes, you can.
It is all within bounds.
It says that that historical
contextualized study is a matter
of fact, evidence, and shared
experience, and the college
board insists that it should be
allowed everywhere in this
country.
Geoff: If the Florida department
of education rejects the revised
ap African-American studies
course, over the college board
respond?
>> The college board will be
very saddened by that decision
to refuse to enable teachers and
students to encounter the facts
and evidence of African-American
history and culture, but we will
not change this framework.
This framework is an honest,
far-reaching, exploration where
no one is excluded.
Geoff: There has been some
suggestion that the college
board should remove all its ap
offerings from Florida if this
revised course is rejected.
Is that in the realm of
possibility, something the
college board can even gain?
>> That is not something I have
discussed with my board at this
time, but I think it would be
tragic.
Young people need and want
terribly to encounter the truth
of our country's history and to
examine directly cultural
achievements.
This course gives them the
freedom.
I want to be rather clear.
They can read any author they
wish.
As they do their project, they
can dig into any theory they
think that is dicey and daring.
Their own elements, their own
imagination, and it will count
towards their score.
This course enables a freedom
that we think is valuable.
Geoff: David Coleman is chief
director of the college board,
and brandy waters is director of
African-American studies at the
college board.
Thank you both.
>> Thank you.
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