That Jesus himself was not God Almighty, that he had a God over him, yes, that he worshipped that
God, yes, and that he prayed to that God, yes, and that God sometimes rejected his prayer, like
in the Bible. He didn't reject his prayer. Did he go to the cross? God has wisdom, like you're saying.
Did he go to the cross? Of course, he did. Did he ask God not to take him to the cross?
If it is thy will. If it is... Every prayer is with God's will, not... Exactly.
Hindu, whatever you are or an atheist even. Everyone is going to give an account. So, I think the difference is that
we believe that there's a law, or that there's a rule that God follows. That there's a punishment
for every sin committed. No, God doesn't follow any rule; God is the law. Well... He's not under
the law. He is the law. The Christian perspective. Because that's why Christ is needed is because somebody has to suffer the
punishment for sin. Why? It's like someone who takes out death... Why somebody else? Why can't the person
who commits a sin be punished for it? Well, that's what hell is. What do you mean, that's what hell is?
You're suffering for your sins. No, but everyone doesn't just go to hell because they
have sinned. God can forgive the sins as well. If they repent to God... Because of what Jesus Christ did.
No, no, before that, he could forgive that as well. So, when if you look at the Book of Ezekiel,
yes, it says "the Father is not accountable for the sin of the Son, and the Son is not accountable
for the sin of the Father. The wickedest of the wicked amongs them..." Wait, wait, listen, listen,
respect your Bible. The wickedest of the wicked among them, when they ask God, I'm paraphrasing,
when they ask God for forgiveness and they repent sincerely to Him, it is as if they
had not committed the sin. In other words, they'll have a clean slate. Now, this is God talking about
the wickedest of the wicked. Now, you think about the people who have just committed minor sins or
committed some sins. If God is able to forgive the wickedest of the wicked as if He wipes out their
slate clean, then it is also possible for God to forgive the sins without the shedding of anyone's blood.
But in Exodus, it also says that God will visit the sins of the fathers under the third and
fourth generation. So, there is some father-son, but besides that... So, that's a contradiction then.
That's a contradiction in your Bible, you have to take care of, not me. You don't believe in Exodus?
No, no, it's not about me; I'm a Muslim. Oh, okay. Looks like that was news to him. No, yeah. Okay.
I thought you were listening all this time. No, no, no, but are there some... So anyway,
we, as Muslims, the reason I quote the Bible is because the Christians believe in it, okay, and
I quote the Quran sometimes and I quote the Bible as well to bring things into perspective, to show
you that if you have that in Exodus and if you have that in Ezekiel, then you see a discrepancy
and a contradiction in your Bible. Well, there's two sides of things, right, you find the balance.
So... It's not actually. It's a contradiction. If God says that He will not, sorry, a bastard will not enter
the Kingdom of Heaven even until the seventh... Is it the 10th generation? 10th, isn't it? Until the
10th generation. Now, this bastard is what? Was it his fault that he's a bastard? Sorry, I'm using
the word bastard; basically, it means born out of wedlock, and that is the actual term used in the
Bible, okay. So, this person who is born out of wedlock, this child, what was his fault or her
fault? Nothing, but even his generation and his generation's generation up to the 10th generation,
all of them will not enter the Kingdom of Heaven; all of them will be destined to
where? Hellfire. Now, whose fault is that? I think the person who committed the adultery or the sin,
he's the one who should be punished, and Islamic narrative is exactly that: The person
who commits a sin should pay the price. I agree with that. But in Christianity, it's the other way around.
It's the ones who never committed the sin. So, let me back up from like arguing for Christianity because,
like you know... Yeah, fair enough. I'm a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints
which some people call us Mormons but... Sorry, Church of The Latter-Day Christ? The Church of Jesus
Christ of Latter-Day Saints. That's a big terminology. No wonder they call you Mormons.
You okay if we call you Mormons? That's not derogatory or anything, is it?
No, I guess we just like people... As long as you don't get offended; that's fine.
No, we just like people to know we believe in Jesus. Fair enough. Yeah. Okay, sorry, you were going to say?
Yeah, I think we.... Do you see it as just for God to punish someone who hasn't committed the sin, who has not committed the sin?
Well, why did God send us to earth in the first place? Well, to worship him, to start with.
Okay. So, my theology is a little bit different. I believe that God's sent us here to learn,
and I think there are a lot of things that we're born into that are really hard, and we didn't
necessarily suffer for. So, I don't believe that children suffer for their father's transgressions,
um, but they do... There are things, right? If your father goes and does all these horrible things
and you suffer from that, that's your father's choice, right? He's going to have to suffer for that.
No, but why do the children suffer? Because they're... Because people have freedom of choice.
No, no, it's not about freedom of choice. The freedom of choice was the father who
basically had a child out of wedlock. Well, it's the father's choice to do that. Yeah, exactly.
So, why should the child be punished? Okay, okay, so talking about the Bible then. So... Of course.
We believe in modern revelation more than some ancient things. So, there's something in the Bible,
something's in the Bible... So, is this in your Bible? It is in Bible. About the... I am assuming you are
correcting it, you're saying it correct... No, I don't know about the book of Mormon.
We use the King James Bible, I'm assuming... Oh, you use the same one? Yeah. Exact same? Yeah. But we also have
modern revelation and modern prophets. Okay, fair enough. So, with regards to this itself,
do you not see a problem where the biblical God punishes the people who are innocent? Do you not
see a problem with that? Well, yeah, I do. You do? So, how do you reconcile it? I don't think that's
the main part of my theology. It is. Can you be saved without the sacrifice of Jesus? No.
There you go. Was Jesus innocent or was he a sinner? He was innocent. Who got punished on the cross?
He volunteered for that. No, he didn't; he begged God to take away the cup in the garden. You know it.
That's not my theology. Oh, you don't believe that's in the Bible? No. I don't believe... I got him there.
No, no, no. He knows it. You are twisting my words. I am not. I don't believe that Jesus went into that.
So, what happened in the Garden of Gethsemane? Go on. I believe that he agreed to that before the...
Go on, tell me what happened in the Garden of Gethsemane? I know what happened in the garden. What happened?
What did he ask God for? You're missing the point. I am not. I am saying that Jesus did that willingly,
that he chose to do that. What did Jesus pray to God in the Garden of Gethsemane? What did he pray to Him?
Take it from me if it is thy will. Take what from him? This cup. And what is the cup represent?
It's the sins of the world. No, what does it represent? Go on, tell me exactly.
The sins of the world. No, tell me what it represents. The crucifixion. Say it, you know it; it's the crucifixion.
Oh yeah... Why would Jesus... Listen, listen. Why would Jesus be at a point where he
literally feels as if he's sweating blood? Yes, because he was in agony. Agony for what? Do you
think he was actually in agony to take the sins of the world? No. Because of the pain that he's going
to experience on the cross because he knew how the Romans used to torture people before they executed
them. Exactly. So, he's asking God to take this cup away from me, and if there is another way,
let it be Your Will be done, not mine. Exactly, but it wasn't God's will. Which God?
God. God Almighty? Yes, God of Jesus? God. God of Jesus? The God. Do you believe Jesus had a God?
God... His Father is God. Did he call his Father God? My God and your God, remember in the...
I feel like we're grasping at straws here. No. We're not. I'm actually showing you from your Bible because
what you're denying is actually in your Bible. When Mary Magdalene approaches him, he says,
'I go to my father and your father, my God and your God.' Okay, tell me why this is important.
So, his Father is his God, do you agree? Huh? His Father is his God. I don't know where you're taking me with this.
I'm taking you... I don't see why it's important. To a point that we agree that Jesus
himself was not God Almighty, that he had a God over him. Yes, yes. That he worshipped that God,
yes, and that he prayed to that God, yes, and that God sometimes rejected his prayer like in
the Bible. He didn't reject his prayer. Did he go to the Cross? God has wisdom like you're saying.
Did he go to the cross? Of course, he did. Did he ask God not to take him to the Cross? If it is thy will.
If it is... Every prayer is with God's will, not... Exactly. So, what are you saying? So, what is the...
what was the prayer? The prayer was that I don't have to go through this, I don't have to suffer.
Thank you. Did he go through it? He did. There you go. So, rejected. He says: 'thy will'. Prayer reject... Look, look.
If you want to hold on to 'if it is your will,' you tell me, any prayer which is not the will of God.
They all are. Exactly. So, even without you... I can't decide whether or not He answers the prayers... Listen. Even without you explicitly
saying, 'God, let it be your will be done, not mine,' even without you using that phrase,
God will still do what He wants. I know. Okay, so the prayer was what? To save him from the cross.
Did he get saved from the cross? According to your narrative, no. Did Jesus pray three times to
his God? On all three occasions in your Bible, his prayer gets rejected, whether you like it or not.
Yeah. So, those people who pray to Jesus, be careful. Even Jesus's own prayer gets rejected,
let alone anybody else's. Okay? In Islam, we believe that Allah has the ability to accept
prayers and reject prayers. And if Jesus did pray, then the Islamic narrative is that he did not get
crucified on the cross, that he was saved from the humiliation and the torture and everything that
his enemies wanted against him. He was saved from all that because Allah says in the Quran. Yes.
"They neither crucified him nor killed him, but it appeared to them so." Now let's get back to the
point about the justice of God. The justice of God, do you think it is just of the most just
being to hold someone else accountable for the sins committed by others? If they agree to it.
It's just like paying debt, right? Like if I'm in debt to you... I'm talking about justice. I'm talking
about justice, not about your emotional belief that if they agree to disagree to... Let's talk about justice.
I know that's just, that's justice, right? If I borrow money from you, I owe you money. That's
justice. Yes. And you have the right to get that money from me. Somebody else could come in and pay that debt.
Absolutely. Exactly. You know the key word you use there? 'Pay.' Exactly. You know there's,
why you, wait, wait, wait. Do you know why you use the word 'pay'? Because you subconsciously
differentiate between the term payment and forgiveness. Now look, let me give you the same
scenario, but I'll change it slightly at the end. Imagine this gentleman here owed me £10, yes, he
owes me £10, and he's now entitled to pay me £10, as per our agreement. But then he comes to me and
he says, 'Brother, I'm finding it a bit difficult to pay you £10. Yes, I'll pay it a bit later. Is
it okay with you?' I say, Look here brother, it's okay. I forgive your £10'. Remember this term
'forgive,' now. Yes, no one else substituted for the payment. In your case, someone else
substituted it. So, even though you cannot pay, somebody else is able to pay for it. Wait, wait,
wait, I want you to understand the difference between the Islamic narrative of forgiveness of
God. Forgiveness means not expecting anything else in return, not expecting any payment or anything
in kind, payment in kind or any substitution at all. Forgiveness means that's it, that's the end
of it. And that is exactly what God does when He says He forgives you. He forgives your sins.
I think I see the difference now is that... Payment and forgiveness, yes. Yeah, we believe... You believe
in the payment. Christian narrative... Yeah, every sin, there must be a payment. Exactly. But yours is different.
Yes. So, if you look at Hebrews 9:22, I believe it's in the KJV as well. It says,
"there is no forgiveness without the shedding of blood." Do you see how profound that statement is?
There has to be a payment by blood. And you disagree with that? Of course, I disagree with that.
The reason I disagree with that is because I believe God is merciful. He does not require
blood from anyone, and specifically the blood of the innocent. And that is exactly what happens
throughout the Bible, either it is innocent animals or an innocent human being. Either way,
it is the innocent who are punished for the crimes of the criminals, the sinners who should
be punished, who should be held accountable. And you go to any court of law, any court of law,
be it in a first-world country or be it in the Amazon forest. No judge will ever say that the
one who commits a sin should go free, and the one who's completely innocent should be punished.
This is human nature. As a human, as a person who doesn't even believe in God, will recognize
this because that is what justice is. And how can you believe that someone who's the most
just, God Almighty, would commit such injustice by killing an innocent being? Why? Why does God need
a condition to kill? I believe that Jesus said he would do it. No, he said he would... No, come on,
we've been through this. Garden of Gethsemane. But you don't know my theology. You only know the Christian theology.
Okay, what's your theology? Go on. Christian theology. That Jesus said... Can you be forgiven without
blood in your theology? No. There you go. We established that. So, what is, why would God need, why would God need blood?
Jesus said he would do it. That's what I'm trying to... No, but you said you believed in
the KJV, and this is in the KJV. I do believe in the KJV, but I have additional revelation.
Okay so, tell me something that will show me that your God is just. Go on.
Okay. So, modern revelation, modern-day prophets. ...Prophets, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. There was life
before this life, and Jesus said that he would do that because he knew that people would need a
savior to save him, because like you said, we need blood for forgiveness. That's what we believe. And
so I'm just, I'm just trying to lay out... How does that absolve you? The God did not choose
Jesus against his will. No, no, how does that absolve your issue with regards to justice?
Well, I'm not arguing that point. We already... So, do you believe it is unjust? No, no,
hold on. It's not about disagreement. I want to know... I want you to know and tell me frankly,
sincerely, which scenario do you consider as just: The one in which God punishes the sinner
and not the sinless, or the scenario which is your... Christian narrative. Regardless if you are Mormon, Protestant, Catholic, whatever you are.
Yes. All of them, they believe in this scenario. I think even the Jehovah's Witnesses believe this that the punishment
that Jesus took upon himself, the only way for all the sinners to absolve themselves of the sin, to atone themselves of the sin
is by the death... Yeah, inshaAllah. Is by the death... Yeah, give me a few minutes, inshaAllah.
Is by the death of Jesus Christ on the cross. So, you tell me how you will absolve yourself or at least show me sincerely
which scenario is correct. The one in which the sinner goes free and not the sinless.
Or the one in which the sinless goes free and not the sinner?
Okay, let me ask you a clarifying question: Do you believe that anybody is sinless? Are you going
to ask me a question with a question? And then I'll answer your question? No, I don't believe
everyone... I think everyone is capable of sin. Everyone sins. However, if God wants to
protect you from sins, and that's what I believe about the Prophets, then they can be protected.
Okay. I believe a lot of the same things. Good. So, we try to do everything we can to avoid sin,
but the flesh is weak. Can you answer my question now? Yeah. So, I believe... Which one is just?
That's what I want to know from you. First scenario about what you were saying. But I also believe
in Jesus Christ. The first scenario is where the sinner is... Is punished. No. The sinner goes free, and the sinless is punished.
Okay, the sinless is punished in my scenario. You can call it punished, you can call it murder, you can call
it human sacrifice, you can call it whatever you want. Jesus did that so that the sinless
could go... The sinner could go free. Okay, so, who is the innocent one? Huh? Who was the
innocent one in that scenario? Jesus was. Good. And who got killed? Jesus was because he...
How is that just? You tell me. Because he agreed to do that. If somebody volunteers to do something...
Even if they agree to do it, do you see that as just? It's not about emotions, my friend. Like I said,
in the court of law, if somebody says, 'I want to take the punishment of this murderer,' yes, the
judge will definitely say, 'No, you can't, because that would be unjust. I would not be imparting my
duty of justice for which I sit here.' Do you see what I mean? If the judge allows that, that itself
shows his injustice. Yeah. So, it doesn't matter how you cut it, whether emotionally or... Justice... Regardless...
My point is that justice demands payment, and that payment had to be given. Justice demands payment?
Demands payment. Yes. But payment from whom? Payment by whom? That's exactly what
I'm saying. But Jesus was in the Garden of Gethsemane he was asking God not to die.
If there was another way. But there was no other way. So, why do you think God cannot forgive? Why do you
think God cannot forgive? Why do you think he needs blood? Because that justice demands it, right?
Justice doesn't mean blood, spilling blood. It doesn't mean that. I didn't say somebody has
to die, but if you do something wrong, you have to suffer the punishment. That's what justice is.
No, but your Bible says that. There's no forgiveness without the shedding of blood. There's a lot of things.
There's a lot of stuff that give... You're stuck in a rock and a hard place, my friend.
I got to go. No problem. What's your name? Jeff. Very nice meeting you, Hashim. Take care. Appreciate it.
All right. I think with that, we should probably end this discussion because it's... Well, it's still a bit
of time for Iftar. So, inshaAllah, Jazakallah Khairan for watching and, yes, as we have seen, the different doctrines of Christianity,
whether it's the original sin, whether it's the Trinity, whether it's atonement by sacrifice of
a human, all of that shows injustice. And in the case of the Trinity, also incoherence. Yes. And
Alhamdulillah, as Muslims, we are not having such predicaments. We do not have issues where
we have to grapple with our own innate nature of right and wrong, justice and injustice,
and so on. So, even if you ask people to show us objectively how you feel about these doctrines,
they'll tell you that the Christian doctrines, yes, there are a lot of questions that need to
be asked and a lot of things that we can clearly see are unjust. Alhamdulillah, you see, in Islam,
we go back to the original message from the time of Adam, the first Prophet, all the way
to the last messenger, Muhammad (peace be upon him). The message has always been consistent,
that it is the one who commits the sins who are going to pay for it, unless Allah forgives them,
unless Allah is the one who sets them free from the transgressions that they have committed. And
this is also possible with Allah, that if you ask God sincerely and repent to God, then He is able
with His mercy to forgive you. In fact, Allah says His mercy is the one which is kind of over His
wrath on the Day of Judgment. So, His mercy takes precedence, and He shows His mercy throughout
history, throughout our lives, whether it's now or whether it's going to be in the future.
This is something even the Prophet, Sallallahu Alaihi Wasallam, his own title. One of
his titles is Rahmatun Lil'Alameen that he came as a Mercy to Mankind. So, when he came, and he could have taken revenge
against his enemies, he let them go free. Yes, he forgave them, like in the Conquest of Mecca,
in Fath Makkah, he let all those enemies of his, who were persecuting him, his family,
his companions, and torturing them, he actually forgives them when he had every ability,
every chance and every opportunity to kill them if he wanted to and seek revenge against them,
but he did not. This is the mercy of the Prophet, Sallallahu Alaihi Wasallam. And the mercy of Allah
takes precedence on the Day of Judgment over His wrath. Alhamdulillah, as Muslims,
we believe in the Oneness of Allah, and we say: "Ashhadu Alla Ilaha Illallah."
And we believe that Prophet Muhammad (SAWS) "Wa ashhadu anna Muhammadar Rasulullah."
So, we believe that Allah is the only one worthy of worship and we believe that Prophet Muhammad (SAWS)
is His messenger. And, inshaAllah, anyone who follows the way of Allah
and His Rasool and believes in Islam, they will have an eternal life of bliss. And those who reject it, they will
be the losers in the Hereafter. So, inshaAllah, come to Islam, know about Islam, and if you
have questions, please ask the people who do know about it, people of knowledge. And InshaAllah,
with that, you will be one of the victorious ones in the Hereafter. With that, I say:
Assalamualaikum Warahmatullahi Wabarakatuh. Jazakallah Khairan.