Some exclusive
new reporting
on the hundreds of thousands of dollars
in legal fees
that Rudy Giuliani is now staring down
and the desperate attempts
that he has made to get former
President Donald Trump
to cover them with his attorney in tow.
I am told that Rudy Giuliani
traveled to Mar a Lago in late
April on a mission
to make a personal appeal to Trump
to pay his legal bills.
By going in person, Giuliani
and that lawyer,
Robert Costello,
believes that they could help
explain face to face
why Trump needed to assist his attorney
with those ballooning legal bills.
They argued that really
it was in Trump's
best interest to do so,
but apparently it fell on deaf ears.
Trump is notoriously strict
about digging into his own coffers.
He did not seem very interested,
I'm told, in covering everything
that Giuliani and Costello wanted.
One source says that
he verbally agreed to help,
but he didn't commit
to any specific amount or timeline.
Another source tells me
that Trump really only agreed to pay
a small fee
from a data vendor
that was hosting Giuliani's records.
I'm told that was $340,000.
All in total, Giuliani's
legal fees are in the seven figure range.
Giuliani's trip
tomorrow, Largo,
has not been previously reported.
We're telling you about it
first here on the source tonight.
But it does indicate
the level of financial stress
that he has been facing for months now.
Some people in Trump's inner circle
were actually surprised
by Trump's unwillingness
to pay for Giuliani's bills,
given he could find himself
under intense pressure
to cooperate with federal
and now state prosecutors
who have charged Trump.
Giuliani already sat down
voluntarily with Jack Smith's team
this summer and two back
to back sessions.
He's now a codefendant
in the election interference
case in Georgia.
He is facing 13 criminal charges
like Trump
and potentially serious prison time.
It's not out of character for Trump
to not want to pay legal fees.
This is something we have heard
from many of his attorneys in the past,
including his former attorney,
Michael Cohen.
When I sat down with him last month,
Our history repeats itself.
One thing that we know for certain
is that Donald does not pay legal fees.
Donald doesn't pay fees at all.
There's a pattern to what he does.
He will pay a little bit for behind
pay a little more for bigger behind
I'm joined now by former
White House
counsel under President Nixon, John Dean.
Don, good to see you again.
I mean,
what do you make
when you hear
that Rudy Giuliani is going to Mar a Lago
making this desperate
plea, trying
to get Trump to pay
for his legal fees and Trump
not really reciprocating on most of that
I think that Trump
is aware that during Watergate,
for example,
the payment of legal fees got lawyers
in a lot of trouble
as the Joint Defense Agreements.
The
the fact that he is not paying,
though, is a pattern of this man.
As Michael just said,
he just doesn't like to pay his bills.
So he will have people come after him
to get the fees.
He had an agreement with Michael,
and he
Michael had to go to court to get it.
Is fees paid?
So, Kaitlan, there's no surprise here.
And Trump,
I think, is willing to tough it out.
He doesn't think Rudy will flip,
but that is a concern.
I mean, I think people know
the Michael Cohen effect.
People have said that
Trump has kind of
changed his tactics there
because of a concern of it
turning into a Michael Cohen situation.
Potentially
I doubt that Rudy will.
Rudy Rudy knows the inner
workings of the system better than most.
As a former U.S.
attorney from the Southern District
of New York,
He knows particularly the RICO law.
He will try to poke holes.
He will think he can prevail.
He'll he certainly at the motion stage,
the early stages of this proceeding
is not likely to flip.
It's only
if the
government of Georgia can overwhelm him.
And he realizes
he's going to go down
and maybe he can save himself
some years by cracking a deal.
I sat down with Bill Barr, Trump's
former attorney general.
Of course, as you know, the other week.
And he had this to say
about what he has seen,
he says happened to people
who were in Trump's orbit
he leaves in
his wake, ruined lives like this.
The people who
went up to Capitol Hill,
these individuals,
many of the people who served them
in government,
that got sucked into things.
And he just leaves all this
carnage in his wake.
Do you think he cares about that?
No, he doesn't care about that.
Loyalty is a one way street for him.
John, do you think Rudy Giuliani
winds up as more carnage here if he
if he hasn't already,
in some people's view,
I think he will.
I think he's in deep trouble.
I the government's case,
it looks like it's overwhelming.
His federal issues
have not been resolved.
Trump could not pardon him in Georgia
if indeed he is convicted in Georgia.
I don't think Trump is going to make it
back to the White House.
I think people are starting
to get a glimmer of what
that could be and they don't want it.
Maybe more
Republicans will
do that before the primary vote.
I don't know.
They're slow learners, apparently.
So I think Rudy is going to get destroyed
by this. It's sad but true.
I mean, yeah.
What is he
if he is as out of money
as his attorney
was arguing in court today
that he is
that the entire reason is attorney
was in court
today was arguing that he could not pay
part of what he is being ordered to pay
as part of that Smartmatic lawsuit.
I mean, what does he do
in that situation? Does he.
Does he represent himself?
What options does Rudy
Giuliani have at that point?
Well, he can get a court appointed lawyer
at some stage.
Representing yourself
is the worst option.
Because,
you know, anyone who represents himself
is likely
to make bad decisions
about that representation.
I think Rudy is likely to go
into Chapter 11 bankruptcy of some sort.
I understand
his his apartment is on the market.
It could raise several million dollars,
but he probably has a lot of debt
he has to handle immediately as well.
So I think bankruptcy is a potential
and maybe a court appointed attorney.
I mean, that would be kind of remarkable
in the worst way.
As someone who was once known
as America's mayor,
you know, the role that he had
after nine
11 is then potentially, as you
predict, could happen,
being represented
by a court appointed attorney
and filing bankruptcy
to cover his legal fees It
it has a
Shakespearean element about it,
although I don't
really think of Shakespeare
when I look at Rudy
and some of the news
clips of him recently,
it does have that kind of tragic
tale that is being told in front of us.
So we'll have to all watch
and no one wishes, Mel.
But he's gotten himself where he is.
What do you make of what we saw
at a Georgia overall?
The district attorney
there saying that she wants to have
a March trial date.
She's
actually asking for
March 4th of a trial date.
I mean, whether or not
that actually happens remains to be seen.
But does that seem realistic,
just given the makeup of this case,
how complex it is,
the fact that there are
19 co-defendants here
I think what's going to slow down
the Georgia case is
the others will file
a kind of motion
that Mark Meadows
has filed to remove the case
to federal court.
While the state
proceedings will continue.
It will bog things down a bit.
And I don't really believe from my talk
with lawyers
who've really studied
this body of law about removal,
but that they are going
to remove the case to federal court.
And if they do, it's
still the same Georgia prosecutors
and the calendar could be even clearer
at the federal level.
I don't know.
It's just a different jury pool.
Broader, wider.
So that that's
what's likely to slow it down.
Caitlin, is the the removal proceedings.
So you don't think that
they're likely going to be able
to get it
moved from
a state proceeding to
as Mark Meadows is doing?
But also, we
we are told by sources
that Trump is also likely to do.
You don't think that's likely
I don't.
It just
it's hard to envision this as official
behavior.
Of any of the people.
When you read that indictment
and you read what what is being included.
Mark Meadows
was not just setting up meetings.
He was not arranging telephone calls.
That's done
by secretaries, staffers,
White House operators.
He's in the thick of this.
And as the indictment brings out
is much different than his motion.
So I don't think they're going
to prevail.
And many of them don't even have federal
standing to
to remove those
who are the fake electors, for example.
And
it's just limited to those
who were in federal office
when these events happened.
Yeah.
I mean,
and to bring this full circle, Rudy
Giuliani is also saying
he's going to potentially
make that argument, though.
I mean,
he obviously did not work
for the federal government.
We'll see what the courts decide.
John Dean, thank you for your.
Not a chance.
Thank you, Caitlin.