My guest tonight is an ABC News anchor
and New York Times best-selling author,
whose new book is called
Meditation for Fidgety Skeptics:
A 10% Happier How-To Book.
Please welcome Dan Harris.
(cheering and applause)
Welcome to the show.
-You make them stand like that? -Oh, no, no, no.
-You make them stand with your presence. -Okay, yeah.
I feel like there are a lot of people
-with cattle prods back there. -No, no.
-This a great audience. -(cheering and applause)
This is the Daily Show audience.
-Welcome to the show. -Thank you.
-What a time to be a news anchor. -Yeah. Yeah.
Like, you are on ABC News and you're working,
and you are reporting on the news.
Can I ask, is this the most stressful time
-to be in the news? -It's really stressful.
Um, but it's also enlivening,
-because what we do matters. -Right.
But I wouldn't say it's the most stressful.
-I mean, I've been at ABC News for 18 years. -Right.
It was really stressful when we were covering war zones.
That was-- we were actually getting shot at,
and I knew people who didn't make it.
And so, uh, I'm always a little reluctant
to say now is more stressful than any other time.
In particular, just, uh,
you didn't ask me this, but I'm gonna say it anyway.
People talk about we're more divided now than ever.
I don't think we're more divided now
than we were during the Civil War.
Well, that's an interesting point.
That's a long time ago.
Because when people say "more than ever,"
I-I think they feel like America's in a place right now
where, for instance, even news has become a subjective thing.
S-Something that used to be a fact-based.
You would, as a news anchor, just tell the people a fact.
This is what happened.
And then people would perceive it differently.
They'd say, "This is how I feel about it."
But now, even news has become fragmented.
Do you feel that the role of news or a news anchor
has changed in America?
What are you trying to do?
I think this is a huge problem that we have.
We can't even agree on a basic set of facts
to frame the discussion.
And I think it's incumbent upon us in the news,
A: to get it right. Especially for those of us
in the so-called, dreaded mainstream media,
to get it right. And also to be--
this is a bit of a cliché, but I think an apt one--
to be a source of light rather than heat.
And that's not-not a knock on people who are, uh,
generating heat, but for-for people in my role,
is to really actually try to provide information
that can be trusted and context that can be trusted as well.
And I would say the onus is also on the end user, the consumers,
these folks, to have a varied media diet.
That means don't just go to one pub--
Well, if you're gonna just go to one place,
I recommend ABC News and the, uh, Comedy Central.
But I think it's incumbent upon people to-to get--
to check out what people with whom you disagree are saying.
But there's-there's a point when you go--
some of the views of people are so extreme,
because news has become
a term that has been used broadly, you know?
So-so there are some sources where
it is, it is madness.
Right? There is no other way you can say it.
You go like, this is just madness.
Like, if someone says "Should I be reading Alex Jones?"
I-I don't know that you would agree with that,
but the president sees that as a news source.
Yeah, I mean, the... I've met Alex Jones.
-And I, uh, I, uh... -I'm sorry, I'm so sorry.
I think it's, uh...
You know, you-you go and watch Alex Jones, I think
you need to have your critical faculties with you.
That's an interesting, uh, uh...
-I'm trying to be diplomatic. -...warning.
-Yes, it's a very diplomatic answer. -Mm-hmm.
Um, is that what you're doing on the news--
many times, trying to be diplomatic in the way
that you're reading it? Because you have your own opinions
as a human being. But at the same time, as a news anchor,
I feel like you're trying to give people information
without seeming to have an opinion on that.
Is that your job?
I think it's part of the job. I mean, we... it...
You're absolutely right: we're human beings.
We have opinions. That's just the...
you know, the nature of this beast.
-Uh-huh. -Um, but I don't think that means you can't be fair.
So, my wife is a physician. I'm sure she's had patients
she hasn't liked, but that doesn't mean she doesn't
-take care of them to the best of her ability. -Right.
We just have to do our jobs,
which means being as fair as we possibly can.
And there are layers of editorial oversight.
What people often don't know about a place where...
like ABC News is n... it's not like I just go on the news
and just say whatever I want. There are people, uh,
who spent a lot of time looking at we're...
what we're gonna say, and making sure
that it's up to legal and ethical standards.
When you look at the stressful environment that you're in, uh,
you were on the news many years ago,
and, uh, you had a-a panic attack, live, on the air.
It was a panic attack that people watched--
millions of people were watching. And then, I think,
like, seven million people went on to view it on YouTube
as well, which I'm sorry for you. Um...
Yeah, well, I appreciate you bringing it up. Thanks.
Yeah. I mean, that's how I roll. Um...
Yeah. Me and the people from Cinnabon-- the-the two...
two groups unhappy with you tonight.
But... but I think what-what you... what you got from it
was really powerful and interesting, because you-you...
you embarked on a journey
which led you to meditation.
What does meditation mean for you?
I mean, you-you've written a whole book about it,
and it-it's really enlightening.
Uh, what does meditation mean to you
and how did it help you get through your toughest times?
Well, first of all, I-I... You're right,
I did have a panic attack on Good Morning America in 2004.
And at that time, uh, meditation wasn't even, like,
number 15 or 16 on my list of things to do.
I mean, I thought it was only for people who live in a yurt
-and are really into crystals and Enya and-and... -Right.
I just didn't... I had no interest in it.
It took a while for me to ultimately find the science
that suggests meditation can lower your blood pressure,
boost your immune system,
and literally rewire key parts of your brain.
I also learned that the type of meditation that I do--
which you also do, uh, as you mentioned to me, is...
which is called mindfulness meditation--
is secular and simple.
You don't have to wear special outfits or join a group
or anything like that. It's really just
-exercise for the brain. -Right.
Th... For me, I found that while it didn't
solve all of my problems--
I'm very wary of silver bullets--
um, it just made me less of a moron.
-It made you less of a moron. -Yeah.
-I like that. -Yeah.
A lot of people think that meditation is, like,
sitting in a room and it's like, "Om..."
You can do that if you want.
-But you don't-you don't do that. You just... -No.
you-you just take a moment and you breathe.
-Do you focus on one thing? -Yeah. Generally speaking,
there are three steps to beginning meditation.
One is you find a reasonably quiet place,
uh, that's... and sit there.
And you can sit. You can stand. You can lie.
-Right. -But often people sit.
Close your eyes.
The second step is just to bring your full attention
-to the feeling of your breath coming in and going out. -Right.
And the third step is... As soon as you try to do this,
you'll find, as you know, that your mind goes nuts.
You think about... mmm, "What's for lunch?"
"Why'd I say that dumb thing to my boss?"
You know, "Where do gerbils run wild?"
Blah, blah, blah.
(clears throat) And the whole game...
These are crazy thoughts that you're having.
-But yeah, yeah. -Yeah. Yep.
"How quickly will the Cinnabon people sue me?"
-Um... (chuckles) -(laughs)
Uh, and then the whole game is just to notice
when you've become distracted
-and to start again and again and again. -Right.
And a lot of people feel that the moment when they see
they've-they've gotten carried off by their thoughts
is a failure, that they've failed at meditation.
That is actually a victory.
It's a victory of real consequence,
because when you see how crazy you are,
you are less owned by the craziness.
You wake up to a fundamental fact
about the human existence,
which is we have this inner narrator
that chases us out of bed in the morning,
-that is yammering at us all day long. -Uh-huh.
And when you're unaware of this nonstop conversation,
it yanks you around.
I feel like you're talking about Donald Trump's tweets
when you said, "It yanks me out of bed in the morning,
-and then it chases me around all day." -(chuckles)
You-You've gone around the country
-talking to people about meditation. -Yeah.
There are many, as you say, skeptics out there.
Many people who go like, "Oh, I don't want to get involved
"with that, you know, that hokeypokey thing.
I don't want to be involved."
You-you meet these people, and then they meditate.
How do you convert people?
How do you say to them, "Hey, just-just meditate"?
And what are... what are the craziest things
that you've encountered when you try and convert...
everyday Americans into meditation?
So, when I first got into...
When I wrote... I wrote a book about meditation four years ago,
and when I f... when I put that book out, I...
I was really trying to convince people
that meditation isn't weird.
I think the culture has moved
-Right. -and that actually meditation has kind of...
-kind of become this aspirational thing. -Yes.
And now the biggest problem...
Um, one of the biggest problems is what we just talked about,
the myth that you need to clear your mind.
But I think an even bigger problem is time.
People think, "I don't have time for this."
And... (clears throat) Sorry about that.
Um, people think, "I don't have time for this."
And o-on this score,
I have good news and then even better news.
The good news is I think five to ten minutes a day
-is a great meditation habit. -Right.
The better news is I actually... I think one minute counts.
And I think telling that to people really lowers the bar
-in a way that allows them to embrace this habit. -Wait.
You can... you can meditate in one minute?
Yes, you can. 60 seconds.
What are you... what are you doing in the 60 seconds?
Just the same thing you do when you do it for five minutes.
Sit there, try to pay attention to your breath,
and when you get distracted, start again.
Were you meditating while we were talking?
(laughter)
-I know you're trying to, um, harass me. -(laughs)
(clears throat) But I'm gonna give you a serious answer.
The serious answer is meditation, broadly defined,
-just means paying attention to whatever you're doing. -Right.
-Right. -And so b... So, since this is a big opportunity for me
and I'm a little nervous to be on The Daily Show, uh,
I'm actually paying very close attention to what you're saying
-because my life depends on it. -So you are meditating.
-Yes. Yes. -Let me ask you this.
-Yes. -And I'll leave you in the world of being a news anchor
who is fair and diplomatic.
Do you think that President Trump meditates or not?
(clicks tongue)
I strongly suspect he does not.
But... but if he wants to...
call me.
He won't call you, but he'll tweet you.
Well, I'll take that.
-Thank you so much for being on the show. -I'll take that.
Thank you very much. Really appreciate it.
Meditation for Fidgety Skeptics is available now.
Dan Harris, everybody.