There is an alarming new development
in the already extremely tense
relationship between the United States
and Russia.
Russia has just arrested
American journalist Evan Gershkovich
and charged him with espionage.
Gershkovich is a US citizen.
He has been working as a reporter
at the Wall Street
Journal's Moscow bureau.
He is the first journalist U.S.
journalist since 1986
who Russia has been charged with spying.
CNN's Natasha Bertrand joins us now.
Natasha, the Biden administration
learned about this yesterday.
We're told
they only just put out
an official reaction.
So what are they saying about this
arrest?
Yeah, Alex,
we are told that the State Department
actually learned about it
from the Wall Street
Journal who informed the administration
that their reporter
had been detained by Russian authorities.
But we are getting
kind of a flurry of statements
now from the White House,
from the State Department
about the detention of this journalist,
saying essentially
that they are deeply concerned about it,
that they have been in touch
both with his family
and also with the Wall Street
Journal on this.
And also importantly,
that the State Department
has been in touch directly
with the Russian government
about his detention.
And, of course,
that is directly contradicting
something
that the Russian government had said,
which is that they had received
no inquiries from the U.S. government.
The US now
directly pushing back on that,
saying that they have submitted
multiple inquiries
through the consular services.
They're trying to get information
on when, how and why
this reporter was detained there.
Now, we also are getting
additional information
from the National Security Council
coordinator for Strategic Communications,
John Kirby,
who told reporters
just a short time ago
that he does not know
whether this detention
was in retaliation for the US charging
a new operative,
a Russian spy, essentially
just last week for entering the U.S.
illegally. And for impersonating
a foreigner, someone
he wasn't pretending to be, someone
he wasn't.
However, it is still too early
at this point
to say
whether Russia is essentially trying
to leverage
this reporters detention
for another prisoner swap.
So we'll just have to wait
and see what happens here.
But the U.S.
still trying to gather information
about why he was detained
and whether they can get any answers
on when he might be released
as of right now.
He is going to be in detention
until the end of May.
Alex, you know,
one of the major questions
whether this was a tit for tat.
Natasha Bertrand, thank you very much.
This is very much
the beginning of
what could be a long saga.
Let's continue this conversation
now with Julia Ioffe
a founding partner
and Washington correspondent for Puck,
who is, I should say,
Russian born
and has a very deep knowledge of Russia.
Julia, thank you so much
for joining me today.
And I think this hits
particularly close to home for you and I.
We met years ago
with young reporters in Moscow
like Herskovitz.
And now we have these accusations
of espionage.
The Kremlin saying that he was caught
red handed.
What does Evan Jurkovich now face
with Russia's legal system?
Well, he faces
up to 20 years in a Russian penal colony.
And for a young man who is 31,
that is his entire youth gone,
unless obviously
some kind of deal is reached.
You mentioned my background,
and it's particularly relevant
in Evan's case as well.
Although he was born in the U.S.,
his parents were immigrants
from the Soviet Union, Jewish immigrants.
And there is a sense in Moscow,
especially in the foreign ministry
and in the Kremlin,
that people of this kind of background,
like my background,
they are particularly sensitive to
and they're particularly sensitive
to our criticism.
They feel that there is a different
kind of level of betrayal
when you leave the Soviet Union,
you leave the country, you move abroad,
and you basically lob grenades at at your
homeland, at your motherland from abroad.
And I think that certainly does not help
Evan's case.
Those of us who had roots
in the Soviet Union
had bigger targets on our backs,
for sure.
And like you,
he speaks Russian, which,
of course, makes you much.
Very, very strong reporters
when it comes to covering Russia.
American Paul Whelan
He is, of course,
still in Russian prison,
convicted on espionage charges.
And I was speaking
with our Russian colleague,
Andrei Soldatov, earlier today,
who told me
he thinks that Russia will start to bank,
in his words, bank
American and possibly European prisoners
for future exchanges. Do you agree?
Absolutely.
And I
think they've already been doing that
for quite a while.
Unfortunately,
for the last couple of years,
and it seems they're crossing ever
brighter red lines.
You and I both know
from what
we've reported there
that there are rules,
written rules,
and then
the much more important,
unwritten, unspoken rules
about what
will get you
in the most trouble
and slightly less trouble, etc.
who is touchable, who isn't?
And you
and I both know that
when we would come back to the states
and Americans would ask us, well, aren't
you scared for your safety?
We both knew that it was actually
our Russian colleagues
who were in danger.
We were protected
by our American passports.
In some ways, we were untouchable
And that rule, unspoken unwritten,
is now gone out the window.
Like pretty much every other rule
in Russia.
There is,
from what I understand
from speaking to people there, a sense
that anything goes
when it comes to the security services,
anything goes.
There are no rules.
And it creates a
big sense of instability and fear.
But even at a time
when the relationship was warmer,
like when you and I were there,
which is over a decade ago,
the FSB made it clear
to foreign journalists
that they were being watched.
And that's something that you reported on
at the time.
Yeah, they did
that to
foreign journalists,
to foreign diplomats.
They would
break into their apartments, rearrange
the furniture, still rugs, etc.,
just to let them know
that they were not at home,
that they were on
somebody else's turf, their turf,
that they were in charge
and they were completely at their mercy
and staying in Russia at their pleasure.
But it didn't result in physical harm.
It didn't result in arrests.
It is
it resulted in a couple of expulsions.
But that was the extent of it.
This is a terrifying new low
and a terrifying new development.
And it's frankly why
I have been scared to go to Russia
since the outbreak of the war
because of exactly this risk, because
you know,
everybody said, well,
but they haven't arrested
American journalists.
And I would say not yet.
And unfortunately, here we are
and since the
outbreak of the war,
we have seen many independent journalists
flee the country.
Many of them are trying to keep covering
Russia and the war in Ukraine
from abroad.
And it's your point.
There has been protection
for international journalists
who have to be accredited.
Many of those
international journalists left
and then have come back.
So now
seeing American journalists
being arrested, charged with espionage.
What kind of chilling effect
do you think that's going to have
on this coverage of Russia at
what is a very, very critical time?
I agree with you.
It's one of
the most important stories in the world
to be covering from inside Russia.
And the fact that there is almost nobody
there now
makes the coverage suffer,
makes Russia more of a black box, makes
Russian decision
making and Russian public reaction
much more inscrutable.
As you
said, American news organization fans
have been kind of tiptoeing back in.
But from what I've heard
in light of this, news
organizations like The New York Times
are pulling people out of Russia again.
Because it's not safe.
And to your earlier point
about banking hostages,
I've been talking to people in Moscow
this morning.
And from what I understand, it
isn't just about a tit for tat
for this GRU officer,
this FSB officer
who was in prison somewhere in the west.
In part, it's a sense of
we no longer care
about the American reaction.
They think America rules the world,
including the
internal International Court
of Criminal Justice at at The Hague.
And that in some ways this is payback
for the arrest warrant
that they issued
for Vladimir Putin,
that the gloves are off.
We no longer care. It's on
its on with
very scary times for our colleagues
in Russia.
Julia Ioffe,
thank you so much for joining us today
and for sharing your thoughts
really appreciate it. Thank you, Alex.