DEMOCRATIC FROM MICHIGAN. SOMEBODY WHO ALWAYS SPEAKS HER
MIND.
MIND. THANKS FOR COMING ON AND SHARING
YOUR VIEWS WITH ME.
>>> JOINING ME NOW ON THE OTHER
SIDE OF THIS STORY OR THE OTHER
HALF OF THIS STORY IS JEH
JOHNSON.
JOHNSON. GOOD TO SEE YOU.
>> THANKS FOR HAVING ME.
>> LET ME START WITH A QUESTION
ABOUT WHAT THE PRESIDENT IS
ASKING MEXICO.
ASKING MEXICO. HE WANTS MEXICO TO IMPROVE ITS
ENFORCEMENT IN SOME FORM OR
ANOTHER.
ANOTHER. WHAT CAN MEXICO DO THAT IT IS
NOT DOING NOW?
>> GOOD QUESTION.
WELL, FIRST I HAVE TO SAY THAT
IF YOU WANT MEXICO, A IN
ADDITION OF 126 MILLION PEOPLE
TO DO SOMETHING, I DON’T BELIEVE
THAT OFFENDING THEIR NATIONAL
HONOR, TRYING TO BROWBEAT THEM
INTO DOING WHAT YOU WANT TO DO
IS THE RIGHT APPROACH THROUGH
TARIFFS.
TARIFFS. IN 2014, CHUCK, YOU REMEMBER THE
SPIKE WE HAD IN EARLY SUMMER.
MAYBE 2014 WE HAD 64,000
APPREHENSIONS ON OUR SOUTHERN
BORDER.
BORDER. WE HAD 60,000 IN ONE MONTH.
ONE OF THE THINGS WE DID WAS
WORK CONSTRUCTIVELY WITH THE
GOVERNMENT OF MEXICO TO PREVAIL
UPON THEM TO PUT MORE ASSET,
MORE PEOPLE ON THEIR SOUTHERN
BORDER WITH THE NORTHERN
TRIANGLE.
TRIANGLE. THEY DID THAT IN JULY 2014.
THAT WAS A DIRECT CONVERSATION
BETWEEN ME AND MY MEXICAN COUNT
COUNTER PART
COUNTER PART COUNTERPART AND IT WAS A
PRESIDENT TO PRESIDENT
CONVERSATION.
CONVERSATION. WE SAW A DOWNTURN IN THE NUMBERS
AFTER THAT.
AFTER THAT. BY AUGUST 2014, THE SPIKE WAS
PRETTY MUCH OVER AND THE NUMBERS
STAYED FOR LOW FOR THE NEXT
YEAR.
YEAR. 2015 WAS THE SECOND LOWEST
NUMBER WE SAW SINCE 1972.
THERE ARE THINGS THE MEXICAN
GOVERNMENT CAN BE DOING WITH OUR
HELP, WITH OUR ENCOURAGEMENT BUT
THROUGH CONSTRUCTIVE ENGAGEMENT
WITH THAT COUNTRY.
>> LET ME YOU THIS.
LAST NIGHT THE ACTING HOMELAND
SECURITY SECRETARY WHEN THEY
WERE BRIEFING US IN THE PRESS
ABOUT WHY THEY ARE DOING THIS.
HE DID NOTE THAT WHEN YOU
COMPARE THIS MONTH OF MAY, HE
SAID THERE WERE 4500 PEOPLE A
DAY THAT HAVE CROSSED THE BORDER
ILLEGALLY OR ARRIVED AT PORTS OF
ENTRY WITHOUT DOCUMENTS.
HE SAID THIS WOULD BE THE
HIGHEST NUMBER IN 12 YEARS FOR
ANY SINGLE MONTH OF MAY.
I KNOW WE’RE IN A PEAK SEASON
HERE.
HERE. IT’S LIKELY TO START TO GO DOWN.
I MEAN, YOU HAD SAID BEFORE, YOU
THOUGHT THIS WAS A CRISIS.
IS IT FAIR TO CALL THIS A
CRISIS?
CRISIS? >> YEAH.
>> YEAH. IT’S A CRISIS CHUCK IN A NUMBER
OF RESPECTS.
OF RESPECTS. FIRST AND FOREMOST IT’S A CRISIS
IN CENTRAL AMERICA BECAUSE OF
THE POVERTY, VIOLENCE, THE
DROUGHT THERE.
DROUGHT THERE. THE LACK OF JOBS.
THE CORRUPTION.
THE CORRUPTION. IT IS AND HAS BEEN A CRISIS FOR
QUITE A WHILE IN CENTRAL
AMERICA.
AMERICA. WHEN YOU SEE NUMBERS AT THESE
LEVELS OF 100,000 A MONTH, 4,000
A DAY, IT’S A CRISIS IN TERMS OF
OUR OWN BORDER SECURITY
PERSONNEL TO DEAL WITH IT.
IT’S A CRISIS IN THE COMMUNITIES
ON BOTH THE MEXICAN AND U.S.
SIDE TO ABSORB THOSE KINDS OF
NUMBERS, TO TAKE IN THOSE KINDS
OF POPULATIONS.
OF POPULATIONS. IT’S A CRISIS IN TERMS OF THE
HUMANITARIAN ASSISTANCE THAT
CATHOLIC CHARITIES AND OTHERS
ARE PROVIDING IN TEXAS.
WITHOUT A DOUBT, THESE NUMBERS
AT THESE LEVELS ARE SIMPLY NOT
SUSTAINABLE AND NOT ENOUGH
PEOPLE IN MY JUDGMENT ARE SAYING
TO THIS PRESIDENT AND THIS
ADMINISTRATION PLAINLY WHAT
YOU’RE DOING IS WRONG.
WE’RE ON TARGET, I’M TOLD, IN
THE MONTH OF MAY TO SEE NUMBERS
LIKE WE’VE SEEN IN MARCH AND
APRIL.
APRIL. >> JEH, I THINK PEOPLE DID TELL
HIM THEY WERE WRONG AND THEY
HAVE BEEN FIRED.
>> THIS WAS THE PRESIDENT’S
CENTRAL ISSUE ON WHICH HE
CAMPAIGNED IN 2016.
HE’S FAILING AT THE EFFORT.
THE NUMBERS WE’RE SEEING MONTH
TO MONTH ARE THE HIGHEST WE HAVE
SEEN IN 12 YEARS.
PLAINLY, WHAT HE’S DOING IS NOT
WORKING.
WORKING. PLAINLY, MY GRANTIGRANTS HAVE NO
DETERRED FROM COMING FROM MEXICO
INTO THE UNITED STATES AND HE IS
NOT -- HE’S NOT TURNING THEM
AROUND.
AROUND. I BELIEVE THAT PEOPLE IN DHS AT
WHITE HOUSE NEED TO REALLY TAKE
A HARD LOOK AT WHAT THEY ARE
DOING AND DECIDE THEY NEED TO GO
BACK TO BASICS AND PERHAPS GET
SOME FRESH PERSPECTIVES FROM
PEOPLE LIKE MYSELF WHO HAD TO
MANAGE AND OWN THIS PROBLEM FOR
A PERIOD OF YEARS BEFORE THEY
CAME TO OFFICE.
>> LOOK, IT’S PLENTY OF
SPECULATION AS TO WHAT’S
MOTIVATED THE PRESIDENT TO DO
THIS.
THIS. I THINK THERE’S SOME THAT
OBVIOUSLY THIS ISSUE BOTHERS HIM
CONSTANTLY AND HE’LL GET THE
DAILY REPORTS ABOUT
APPREHENSIONS AND THINGS LIKE
THAT.
THAT. THERE’S ALSO THE ISSUE OF ROBERT
MUELLER.
MUELLER. IT’S POSSIBLE HE WANTS TO JUST
SEND A MESSAGE TO HIS BASE.
DON’T FORGET WHY YOU WANT ME
HERE.
HERE. I’M THE ONLY ONE TALKING ABOUT
THAT ISSUE IN WAY YOU LIKE
HEARING AND PERHAPS THERE’S A
LOT OF DIFFERENT WAYS ON THIS,
BUT THIS IDEA THAT IT’S A
RESPONSE TO THE MUELLER REPORT,
WHAT KIND OF IMPACT WOULD THAT
HAVE ON DHS STAFF, BY THE WAY?
SDM
SDM .
. >> FIRST OF ALL, I CAN’T MAKE
SENSE OF THE DECISION MAKING
PROCESS.
PROCESS. I WAS LISTENING TO YOUR LEAD IN
AND THINKING IT’S JUST ANOTHER
FRIDAY IN THE TRUMP PRESIDENCY.
SDM
SDM >> YOU AND ME BOTH.
>> I CAN’T MAKE SENSE OF IT ALL.
WHAT WE’RE GOING THROUGH RIGHT
NOW, IN MY JUDGMENT, HAS TO BE
DEMORALIZING TO THE PEOPLE IN
WASHINGTON AND DHS AND ON THE
FRONT LINES WHO ARE TRYING TO
ADOPT A CONSISTENT POLICY, TO
BRING A CONSISTENT RESPONSE AND
APPROACH TO WHAT PLAINLY IS AN
UNPRECEDENTED IN MODERN TIMES
SITUATION.
SITUATION. WE NEED TO CONTINUE TO INVEST IN
THE POVERTY AND VIOLENCE AND
ERADICATE THE POVERTY AND
VIOLENCE THROUGH WHAT WE STARTED
IN 2016 AND THE PRESIDENT HAS
SUSPENDED THAT EDED THAT AID WHI
IS THE WRONG THING TO DO.
WE HAVE TO START AT THE SOURCE.
THIS IS NOT A SIMPLE, EASY,
QUICK FIX.
QUICK FIX. >> VERY QUICKLY, YOU’RE NOT ONE
OF THOSE VERY HIGHLY PARTISAN
DEMOCRATS, IF YOU WILL.
I’M CURIOUS AS YOU SEE THIS
DEBATE PLAY OUT IN THE
DEMOCRATIC PARTY OVER
IMPEACHMENT, DO YOU HAVE AN
OPINION?
OPINION? >> WELL, I HAVE BEEN OF THE VIEW
THAT THIS IS A MATTER FOR THE
ELECTORATE.
ELECTORATE. WITH AN ELECTION 17 MONTHS AWAY,
THERE COMES A POINT WHEN
IMPEACHMENT BECOMES AN ACADEMIC
ACT.
ACT. PARTICULARLY WHEN YOU KNOW YOU
NEED TWO-THIRDS OF THE SENATE TO
CONVICT.
CONVICT. IT SHOULD BE UP TO THE VOTERS TO
DO THEIR JOB TO DECIDE WHETHER
OR NOT PRESIDENT TRUMP DESERVES
A SECOND TERM.
I WATCHED VERY CLOSELY THE
STATEMENT FROM DIRECTOR MUELLER.
I READ HIS REPORT LIKE DEBBY
DID, SEVERAL TIMES.
IN PARTICULARLY PART TWO.
FOR THE LIFE OF ME I DON’T
UNDERSTAND WHAT DIRECTOR MUELLER
IS TRYING TO TELL US.
IS HE TRYING TO TELL US BUT FOR
THE POLICY HE WOULD HAVE
INDICTED THE PRESIDENT OR IS HE
TRYING TO TELL US THEIR
ARGUMENTS FOR AND AGAINST.
I DON’T HAVE TO DECIDE BECAUSE
HE CAN’T BE INDICTED ANY WAY.
THE STATEMENT ON WEDNESDAY
SEEMED TO SUGGEST IT WAS MORE
THE FORMER AND NOT THE LATTER
WHICH ADDS MOMENTUM TO WHAT I
SEE IS A GROWING EFFORT IN THE
HOUSE DEMOCRATIC CAUCUS TO CALL
FOR IMPEACHMENT.
FOR IMPEACHMENT. THE SAND IS SHIFTING.
YOU SHOWED A NUMBER OF