Stacey Abrams, welcome back to the show.
Thanks for having me again.
I don't even know where to start,
because every time I see you,
I feel like you are doing more and more things.
-So, let's start with the book. -Okay.
Level Up. Um, very few people can say
that they have run for governor and are also...
Is it a three-times New York Times best seller?
-Four. Well... -Four. Forgive...
-I mean... Who's counting? -It-It's...
-Four times. (laughs) -Yeah.
-Four-times New York Times best seller. -I-I have an abacus
-in my... in my living room. -I love that. I love that.
Um... You-you, like...
Here's-here's my first question, maybe, is that, it's like...
You do so well writing.
-Why-why stress yourself with politics? -(laughs)
I love writing, but I also love people,
and people do better when they have good leadership.
People do really well when they have leaders that like them.
And, so, I want to be one of those people
who actually likes people and wants to help them
from the office of governor.
-Ah, okay. People feel that. -Yeah.
NOAH: Level Up, a book about, essentially, small businesses
and-and how to grow them and the challenges that you face.
-You share the fact that you had businesses that failed. -Yes.
Most politicians will always just be like,
"No, that didn't fail. I pivoted."
-It's the pivot. People love the pivot. -Yeah.
One of the big things you-you learn about
when reading the book is-is just how many small businesses fail.
-Mm-hmm. -Now, I-I don't know if I'm in the minority here,
but I sometimes wonder if there's too much of an obsession
with starting your own business in America.
Like, it-it feels like there's this thing.
I don't know if it's attached to the American dream,
but it feels like everyone is told,
"You have to start your own business."
Is there a reason you chose to start your own business
and not to just work in a field that was already...
you know, a business that already exists?
Oh, I like paychecks. They made me very happy.
-(laughs) -I was... Paychecks were...
Stacey Abrams: "I like paychecks."
I like paychecks. I was a tax attorney.
And that was a nice paycheck,
and then I began what my mother has called
my trajectory of downward economic mobility
when I left there
and became deputy city attorney for Atlanta.
When I decided to run for office, though, I couldn't...
I didn't feel right staying in my job
as a lawyer for the city
when I was running for political office.
And so I left. And I became what I call a reluctant entrepreneur.
I had to find a way to pay for my mortgage
since I was gonna leave my job.
-Right. -And that's when I started my business.
And for a lot of people, starting a small business
isn't this Horatio Alger story.
It's not because they all want to be mini moguls.
It's often circumstance.
A mom who needs to take care of her kids
but also needs to make a living.
And so she starts a-a business in her--
in her, you know, front-- in her, you know, kitchen.
-Right. Yeah. -It's people who need opportunities.
And so my mission is to say,
"Regardless of why you start your small business,
"here's what you need to know about it.
"Because these are the things no one's gonna tell you.
-Mm-hmm. -"Shark Tank is not going to happen for most of us,
-so here's what we need to do." -(laughs)
And that it's gonna be difficult.
Uh, in Georgia right now,
99% of the businesses in Georgia are small businesses.
-Wow. -49% of the employees
are employed by small businesses.
And so if we don't understand small businesses,
we're in a lot of trouble.
And if we don't do our work to prop them up
and to help them, support them as they grow
-and, more importantly, help them scale... -Yeah.
...then we're actually hurting the very people
we say we want to help in our economy.
If you were to become the, uh, governor of Georgia--
people are screaming as I say that and cheering right now...
-Well, thank you. -If-if you were to become
the governor of Georgia, wh-what are some of the first steps
you think you would take to help small businesses?
If you're saying 99% of them are small businesses in Georgia,
what-what do you think could change?
Where can government step in?
And-and where should that, um,
you know, sort of, that marriage end
between the government helping a small business
whilst also making a business a business?
First thing we need to do is to expand Medicaid in Georgia.
Which sounds like a completely counterintuitive answer
-to the question you asked. -It does.
But Geor-Georgia spends
billions of dollars in what's called uncompensated care.
We pay for people who can't afford health care.
Part of that is the fact that we have failed
to take money that belongs to Georgians
and reinvest it in health care.
But Medicaid expansion in Georgia will create 66--
or 60,000 new jobs.
When you expand Medicaid,
you create small businesses.
And it's an infusion of capital that comes from commerce,
not from loans.
Number two, we should sh--
we should teach young people how to start businesses.
Even if they don't ever want to start one of their own,
-they should know what it looks like. -Yeah.
And then-- It makes them better employees.
If you understand how business works,
then you understand why your boss, who has two employees,
-cannot pay you what your friend at Coca-Cola makes. -Right.
-Right, right. -And so it's-it's creating that-that lexicon
and that understanding.
And the third is encouraging financial systems
to actually loan money when you have to do that
in communities that don't have it.
-Mm-hmm. -After the great recession,
Black communities in particular lost banks,
and they never came back.
An so, when the PPP loans came out--
a good intention of government--
the money went to places that were not willing to lend
-to the very communities that needed it. -Right.
And as governor, I would pay attention to that.
I would say, "We need to use these small...
"these Black-owned banks or these Latino-owned banks,
these community banks."
We need to use those as depositories
so when money comes the next time,
there's someone in the community who's ready to loan it.
-Let's talk about politics... -Yes.
...which is everything in America all the time.
Um, you are running for a seat that...
in a state that has become, I mean,
one of the lightning rods of American politics-- Georgia.
What's interesting about this race is the fact that
Governor Kemp has put into place multiple restrictions
on how people can vote, when people can vote.
He's reduced the availability of voting for people.
Republicans will argue the same thing.
They will say, "No, all we're trying to do
"is shore up the vote, even though we agree
there has been no widespread voter fraud."
How do you begin tackling an issue like this,
where, A: you are running, so you want to make it better
for yourself, slash, fair for everybody?
But how do you... how do you find that balance
of saying to people, "Listen, I'm trying to do this
for everybody, and I know that I hope I will benefit"?
-But you get what I'm saying? -Absolutely.
There's that paradox
of the messaging that you're trying to get out.
I reject the paradox. Voting...
The process of voting is non-partisan.
Everyone should have access to the ability to vote.
It should be easy to vote.
It should be accessible.
-There should be a freedom to vote. -Mm-hmm.
Any impediment to that is wrong.
That's full stop.
I don't care who you vote for.
When I'm focusing on the voting system,
my focus should never be on who you cast your ballot for.
Voting itself, the process is non-partisan.
Now, when you get in there, I'm going to do everything
-in my power to convince you I'm the person to pick. -Right.
But the fight for the right to vote is something
that should cut across every demographic,
every ideology, every community.
We are a stronger nation when we allow people to participate.
And if we ever doubted that,
the war that Putin is waging against Ukraine...
President Zelensky said it.
I'm going to paraphrase him probably poorly.
He said, "This isn't a war on Ukraine.
This is a war on democracy in Ukraine."
When we allow democracy to be overtaken
-by those who want to choose who can be heard... -Mm-hmm.
...and those choices are not based on anything
other than animus or inconvenience,
then that is wrong.
My mission is to make certain that everyone can cast a ballot,
even people who don't like me-- especially those folks--
they should be able to go and cast their ballots.
My job is to make sure that more people
who like me show up, but that's campaigning.
-That's not voting rights. -Yeah.
Um, before I let you go, I have to talk to you about the mask.
-Yes. -'Cause, I mean, I was-was on social media,
and then I see the picture with your mask,
then the picture gets deleted.
Y... I... This is what I found interesting.
And maybe you-you'll correct me if I'm wrong.
It's like, it feels like, with politicians,
you have a team around you.
Everyone's trying to figure out how to solve a crisis
or fix a problem.
People say ridiculous things like, Garcetti was like,
"I hold my breath when I take the picture." -I didn't.
Y... And-and it creates this weird, um, uh...
it-it creates a situation where people feel like
leaders aren't following the rules
or people, you know, are punished differently
from leaders, et cetera, et cetera.
Why did you say, "Yeah, I messed up, and that's that."
And going forward, do you think you'll be able
to maintain that without at the same time
letting your enemies use that as your,
you know, like, "Don't vote for Stacey Abrams. She messes up."
My responsibility, in that instance,
if I created any appearance that
I did not take children's lives seriously, that's a mistake.
But your job, fundamentally, is to acknowledge
when you make a mistake and try to make it right.
We have this nar-this narrative that we have invincible leaders.
That's just not true.
What we have are humans who want to do a job,
and we have to hold them accountable for the job they do
-Mm-hmm. -but have to have grace when they make mistakes
and trust that their intentions were right.
But you can't trust someone's intentions
if they never tell you what they were.
Saying, "I'm sorry," saying, "I made a mistake,"
is about being honest about your intentions.
I intended to do something. I did not quite do it.
So let me tell you about the gap and let me tell you
how I'm gonna make it better the next time.
I need to remember that for the next time I mess up.
I have a lot of practice. I wrote a book about it.
Yeah, I just-I'm just gonna pivot. That's what I'm gonna do.
All I think of when I read this is "Level Up."
It's the first, like, book I can dance to
-when I just read the title. -Yes.
♪ Level up, level up, level up. ♪
Stacey Abrams, thank you for taking the time.
-Thank you for joining us on the show. -Thank you for having me.
Stacey Abrams and Lara Hodgson's book "Level Up"
is available right now.