>> Stephen: HEY, EVERYBODY, WE'RE BACK HERE WITH THE AUTHOR
OF THE BOOK "BETRAYAL," JONATHAN KARL.
AFTER WRITING THE BOOK ON JB 6 LAST YEAR, ONCE AGAIN, THE BOOK
IS CALLED "BETRAYAL," AND KNOWING ALL YOU KNOW FROM YOUR
REPORTING, WHAT ABOUT THE COMMITTEE'S FINDINGS, IF ANY IN
THESE PUBLIC HEARINGS, HAS SURPRISED YOU?
>> WELL, I'LL TELL YOU, THIS MAY SOUND SILLY, BUT IT'S THAT TRUMP
ACTUALLY WANTED TO GO TO THE CAPITOL ON JANUARY 6.
I MEAN HE SAID IT IN THE SPEECH.
>> Stephen: RIGHT, "I'LL BE UP THERE.
I'LL BE WITH YOU."
>> YOU DON'T BELIEVE EVERYTHING HE SAYS.
>> Stephen: ARE YOU SAYING DONALD TRUMP LIES?
IS THAT WHAT YOU'RE SAYING, SIR?
>> I'M LIKE THERE'S NO WAY HE WANTS TO GO TO THE CAPITOL.
IT'S RAUCOUS UP THERE.
THIS GUY WANTS TO HANG OUT AT THE WHITE HOUSE WHILE ALL HIS
PEOPLE ARE UP THERE.
WHEN I HEARD CASSIDY HUTCHINSON SAID HE WANTED TO GO, AND NOT
DID HE REALLY WANT TO GO, HE WAS PISSED-- CAN I SAY --
>> Stephen: YOU CAN SAY PISSED OFF.
>> THAT THE SECRET SERVICE WOULDN'T ALLOW HIM TO GO UP
THERE.
THAT SHOCKED ME.
I THOUGHT HE REALLY JUST WANTED TO GO WATCH IT ON TV, BUT HE
REALLY WANTED TO BE THERE.
AND WHAT DOES THAT MEAN?
>> Stephen: WHAT DOES THAT MEAN?
I ALWAYS WONDERED.
IT'S A BIG DEAL THAT HE WANTED TO GO.
WHAT HAPPENS IF HE GOES?
>> IT'S ALMOST LIKE HE WANTS TO GO THERE TO PRESIDE OVER THE
STOP-- YOU KNOW, OVER THE DISRUPTION OF THE SORTIFICATION
OF JOE BIDEN'S WIN.
IT'S LIKE HE THINKS THAT IT'S GOING TO WORK.
BECAUSE WHY ELSE WOULD YOU BE UP THERE?
WHY ELSE WOULD YOU WANT TO GO UP THERE WITH YOUR PEOPLE.
YOU THINK THIS IS YOUR CHANCE TO STOP IT AND BASICALLY EXERCISE
THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN A COUP.
>> Stephen: ARE THERE ANY LEADS THAT DIDN'T PAN OUT,
PEOPLE YOU COULDN'T TALK TO, OR LEADS YOU COULDN'T FOLLOW THAT
THE HEARINGS HAVE BEEN ABLE TO GET TO?
>> I WANT TO GET PAT CIPOLLONE ON THE RECORD MORE THAN ANYBODY.
>> Stephen: LEAD WHITE HOUSE COUNSEL.
>> HE WAS THE WHITE HOUSE COUNSEL.
HE WAS THERE FOR IT ALL.
HE'S ONE OF THE FEW PEOPLE WHO WAS REALLY WITH TRUMP THROUGHOUT
IT ALL ON JANUARY 6.
AND I KNEW, PEOPLE CLOSE TO HIM-- I KNEW A LOT ABOUT WHAT HE
WAS DOING.
I KNEW HE THOUGHT ABOUT RESIGNING AND THOUGHT IF HE
RESIGNED IT COULD HAVE BEEN WORSE.
I KNEW THAT HE WAS ABSOLUTELY OPPOSED TO THIS CRAZY NOTION
THAT MIKE PENCE COULD OVERTURN THE ELECTION.
I KNEW ALL THAT.
BUT I WANTED-- YOU KNOW, I REACHED OUT, I SPENT MONTHS.
I COULD NOT GET AN ON-THE-RECORD CONVERSATION WITH HIM.
>> Stephen: YOU'VE HAD OFF-THE-RECORD CONVERSATIONS
WITH HIM?
>> I MEAN, I CAN'T REALLY SAY THAT.
>> Stephen: YOU CAN'T EVEN SAY WHETHER YOU HAD-- HOW ABOUT
TELLING ME-- YOU JUST TOLD ME.
YOU JUST TOLD ME.
THE FACT THAT YOU CAN'T SAY.
A-HA!
>> I AM VERY PERSISTENT.
SO YOU CAN-- YOU CAN ASSUME.
BUT -- >> Stephen: OVER A YEAR AGO,
YOU HAD-- YOU HAD A SIT-DOWN WITH THE FORMER PRESIDENT DOWN
IN MAR-A-LAGO, RIGHT?
>> YEAH.
>> Stephen: HOW THAT YOU WATCHED THESE HEARINGS WHAT OF
THAT CONVERSATION COMES BACK TO YOU WITH SPECIAL FORCE?
>> IT IS THE MOST HAUNTING THING I'VE EVER HEARD A PRESIDENT,
FORMER PRESIDENT SAY THAT I'VE EVER HEARD DONALD TRUMP SAY.
AND THAT'S WHEN I ASKED HIM IF HE WAS WORRIED ABOUT MIKE PENCE.
AND HE SAID, "NO, I KNEW HE WAS FINE."
I SAID, "BUT THEY WERE CHANTING 'HANG MIKE PENCE '."
AND HIS ANSWER-- THIS IS THE PART THAT HAUNTS ME.
HE SAID, "THEY WERE ANGRY.
IT'S COMMON SENSE, JOHN.
YOU CAN'T PASS ON A FRAUDULENT VOTE."
HE WAS DEFENDING, EXPLAINING FIRST, AND THEN DEFENDING THE
CHCHCHANTS OF PEOPLE THAT WANTEO MURDER HIS VICE PRESIDENT.
JUST LET THAT SINK IN.
THERE ARE A LOT OF CRAZY STUFF THAT ARE SAID-- SAID --
>> Stephen: I TRY NOT TO LET THAT SINK IN, ACTUALLY.
AFTER A YEAR I SCOTCH GUARDED MYSELF SO A LOT OF WHAT HE SAYS
ROLLED OFF A DUCK'S BACK.
YOU'RE STILL REPORTING ON THE INSURRECTION.
>> YEAH.
>> Stephen: AND YOU WERE IN ARIZONA YESTERDAY TALKING WITH
ELECTION OFFICIAL RUSTY BOWERS WHO HAD SUCH COMPELLING
TESTIMONY IN FRONT OF THE JANUARY 6 HEARINGS, CLEARLY A
MAN OF FAITH.
WHAT DID HE HAVE TO SAY ABOUT WHERE THINGS STAND NOW IN
ARIZONA, FOR INSTANCE?
>> HE'S UP FOR REELECTION.
YOU KNOW, HE'S GOT A RACE ON TUESDAY.
TRUMP HAS GONE OUT TO ARIZONA TO CAMPAIGN AGAINST HIM, SAYING HE
DISGRACED HIMSELF, HE DISGRACED THE STATE OF ARIZONA WHAT HE
SAID.
I FOUND RUSTY BOWERS TO BE ONE OF THE MOST SERIOUS, GOOD, KIND
OF MORALLY CENTERED PEOPLE I'VE EVER INTERVIEWED.
IT WAS A FASCINATING CONVERSATION.
HE DESCRIBED GOING BACK TO ARIZONA AFTER HIS TESTIMONY AND
SOME OF THE BLOWBACK HE GOT.
AND HE WAS-- HE HAD SOMEBODY COME UP TO HIM AND SAY, "YOU'RE
A TRAITOR!" AND THE PUNISHMENT FOR TREASON
IS HANGING.
I MEAN, THIS IS THE STUFF HE'S STILL DEALING WITH.
AND HE'S GOING TO LOSE-- HE THINKS IT WOULD TAKE A MIRACLE
FOR HIM TO WIN.
HE WANTS TO WIN.
HE'S CAMPAIGNING HARD.
>> Stephen: AGAIN, SOMEBODY WHO WANTED THE FORMER PRESIDENT
TO WIN.
>> YES, HE WAS A TOTAL TRUMP SUPPORTER, AND TRUMP ASKED HIM
TO USE HIS POWER AS SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE, REPUBLICAN SPEAKER OF
THE HOUSE IN ARIZONA TO OVERTURN THE RESULTS IN ARIZONA, HE
ABSOLUTELY REFUSED.
TRUMP TALKED TO HIM TWICE.
GIULIANI TURNED THE SCREWS ON HIM AND THEY PRESSURED HIM IN
EVERY POSSIBLE WAY AND HE STOOD FIRM.
AND HE REALLY FACED UNBELIEVABLE PRESSURE, PERSONAL-- I MEAN, HIS
DAUGHTER WAS DYING, AND THEY WERE GOING OUTSIDE HIS HOUSE
WITH LOUDSPEAKERS, YOU KNOW, SCREAMING AT HIM.
I MEAN -- >> Stephen: AND WHEN ASKED IF
THE FORMER PRESIDENT RECEIVED THE NOMINATION AGAIN IN 2024,
WOULD HE VOTE HEAR HIM, HE SAID YES.
>> HE DID SAY THAT.
HE WAS ASKED THAT QUESTION.
WE TALKED ABOUT THAT.
THAT IS NOT HIS POSITION.
AND YOU CAN WATCH HIM.
IT'S ON SUNDAY ON -- >> Stephen: WHAT, "YES "WAS AN
AMBIGUOUS ANSWER?
I DON'T UNDERSTAND.
>> HE SAID HE WAS-- I DON'T REALLY KNOW WHY HE SAID IT THE
FIRST TIME.
HE WASN'T EXPECTING THE QUESTION.
IF IT'S BIDEN OR TRUMP, AND HE KIND OF LEANED BACK ON HIS
REPUBLICAN-- THIS GUY IS A LIFELONG REPUBLICAN, BUT HE
SAID-- HE EXPLAINED TO ME THERE'S ABSOLUTELY NO WAY.
>> Stephen: SO WE'LL HEAR MORE ABOUT THIS.
>> THERE'S NO WAY HE VOTES FOR DONALD TRUMP AGAIN.
I ASKED HIM HIS ADVICE FOR PEOPLE LIKE KEVIN McCARTHY AND
OTHERS WHO REMAIN SUPPORTIVE, AND IT'S LIKE, "TELL THE TRUTH.
TELL THE TRUTH."
AND FOR RUSTY BOWERS, THE TRUTH IS THAT DONALD TRUMP TRIED TO
DESTROY THE CONSTITUTION OF THE UNITED STATES.
AND HIS FAITH IS TO THE CONSTITUTION.
HIS LOYALTY IS TO THE CONSTITUTION, NOT TO A
REPUBLICAN PRESIDENT.
VERY POWERFUL INTERVIEW, ONE OF THE MOST INTERESTING
CONVERSATIONS I'VE HAD IN A LONG TIME.
>> Stephen: JONATHAN, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR BEING HERE.
>> THANK YOU.
( APPLAUSE ) >> Stephen: THE BOOK "BETRAYAL"
IS AVAILABLE NOW.
JONATHAN KARL, EVERYBODY!
WE'LL BE RIGHT BACK WITH B.J.
NOVAK.