Thanks for joining us in Nine News plus.
I'm Chris Bianchi.
On Wednesday, the city of Denver
announced that they are banning the
use of TikTok on city owned devices.
They're just the latest government
entity that's doing this,
joining several other cities and
even states in banning TikTok.
There are growing calls from elected
officials on both sides of the political
aisle to ban TikTok altogether.
But TikTok, a Chinese owned company
that allegedly pulls a lot of your
data when you use it, is also.
The fastest growing social media platform
in both America and across the globe,
with over a billion worldwide users.
But we wanted to separate fact from fiction.
Should tick tock be banned or is this
just a bunch of political bluster?
We spoke with a Colorado State
assistant professor of computer science
about what he thinks about TikTok
and whether or not you should use
it. Professor Summer, I mean, thank you
so much for joining us on news today.
Thank you very much for having me, Chris.
I guess the first question that
I have for you, Professor survey,
and I know it's probably the obvious,
but it's been an overview one.
What is TikTok? Who owns it?
How does it work?
Alright, so yes,
that's a fundamental question.
So TikTok is essentially a
short video hosting service,
a platform that allows you to create
and post and share and consume
short videos up to 10 minutes long.
It is owned by a company called Bite Dance.
It's a Chinese company with
headquarters in Beijing and China.
TikTok was launched into the
global version which is called
TikTok is was launched in 2017.
But there is a Chinese version of it,
which is the same social media but in
Chinese that was launched in 2016 and
that is called Duin is active in China.
Tiktok right now has about
1.5 billion users worldwide,
and in the US alone it has approximately
about 100 million users per month.
So that's quite a bit.
And my understanding about that is
it's grown quite a bit over the
last couple of years, correct?
It is, it is the fastest growing social
media, particularly during COVID,
it grew significantly even in terms
of the ad revenues is one of the
fastest growing sort of social media.
If you just consider the social media
part of the ad revenue they had,
I think the revenue in 2021 was
about $3.9 billion from ads and that
increased to around $12 billion.
In 2022 and it is predicted to reach
somewhere around $18 billion in 2023,
which is which is a a significant
increase in advertising revenue.
That's a lot, that's a big increase as
you mentioned a short period of time.
Perhaps COVID related,
how does and I know there's been a
lot of discussion about tick Tocks
algorithm being specifically targeted
and uniquely good at knowing what U.S.
consumer wants.
So how does tick Tocks algorithm
work and also do you agree?
With what I just said,
where again there's been general
notions about its algorithm being
exceptionally gifted at picking
up on what the consumer wants.
So the algorithms that tick Tock
is using essentially belong to the
generation of algorithm that we
call them a recommendation systems.
We have seen many of these type of
algorithms and we have worked with
them across many different platforms.
Netflix, YouTube,
social media apps such as Instagram,
Facebook, anything that has sort of
some feeding and recommendation of
content uses this type of algorithms.
And the way these algorithms work
is that they essentially sense
and monitor pretty much all of the
interactions that the users have
in their inside the algorithm.
The videos that the users watch,
how much of which video they watch,
whether they follow any particular
creator or how many videos of a
particular creator that uses watch that
likes, the comments that they write,
the contents of the comments,
the frequency of the use,
the amount of use,
the time of the use of the.
Enough to have it's been collected.
In addition to that,
these apps including Tick Tock particularly,
they collect some data from
the device that they are on.
Depending on the access that they provide,
that many of these social media apps,
they require quite a bit of access.
They can access the location,
specific information about the user,
the information about the other apps,
possibly about the user and this algorithm,
they essentially collect all
this information and they learn
the user behaviors that's.
Essentially the objective and then they
try to recommend content to the user
that increases the users engagement and
this is really the ultimate objective.
These are work like ad machines,
so they want to sell AD,
they want to sell more targeted AD
and therefore the objective is to
increase the engagement of the user
by making better recommendations and
things like algorithms in particular
are known to be very effective.
Part of the reason I believe is that.
They collect so much data and they
collect very nuanced type of data as well.
So for instance,
it's been said that they collect event
data about the sounds in particular
videos and whether the users are
showing interest toward videos with
particular sounds and that will
consider in the recommendation.
And there are also some studies and
recent studies showing that they
do have some JavaScript codes that
they can they have been collecting.
The keystrokes that the users
use within the in App browser,
so they have their own browsers.
Some of these applications including
TikTok that if you want to if you click
on a link and you want to go a website,
you don't go.
You don't redirect you to
Chrome or safari on your phone.
They have in an in app browser.
And it seems that Tiktok insert
a code the JavaScript code there
that can record the keystrokes
of the user within that browser.
Meaning that if you are typing in your
credit card number or your password.
Or anything else within that
browser on a website that
you're visiting. In that browser,
apparently there is a code that
TikTok has that was collecting office.
Tiktok commented on this and they
confirmed that they collected this data,
but they mentioned that they were
not using it for their algorithms.
But General idea is that it seems that
because of the the nuanced amount
of data and the significant amount
of data that they are collecting,
the algorithm is known to be very
effective in predicting and making
quite accurate recommendations.
Is that different what you mentioned
with the algorithm from, say,
Facebook, Instagram, Twitter,
some of the more mainstream
American social media platforms?
So in a lot of aspects nobody
in some specific and I think the
sort of pay attention should be
given to those specific attitudes,
nuanced data that's been collected
that there are different.
So one thing about tick Tock in addition
to sort of in app data it collects,
it also collects a lot of data
from the websites that the
users visit outside of the app.
Whether you are a tick tock user or not,
whether you have Tiktok on
your device or not,
Tiktok is one of the companies
because they are ad sellers.
And they have some trackers called
pixel and that they install on,
they have it installed on different
websites by the different website owners.
This can be completely separate websites.
And there is a recent investigation
showing that surprisingly a large
number of websites in the US where
some of the very popular websites,
they do have those pixels on their
websites that they collect data about
the pages you visit on those websites,
the content that you see,
your IP address and information of that.
Short so they do collect information
about that too and if you are a tick
tock user don't those information
altogether can create a profile.
This is something that Google
has been doing it too,
meta has been doing it too,
but with some for some nuanced information.
I mean the main information that
I mentioned with respect to the
in App browser and recording,
the keystroke study that essentially
identified these tested some other
social media apps as well including
Instagram and a YouTube etcetera.
None of those other apps were
collecting information about
the keystroke which can include.
Very sensitive information,
but it seems that TikTok was the
only one that was collecting those in
addition to that information about the sound.
For example,
in the video,
the only app that I know I have
heard this thing about was TikTok
that sort of it has all these
nuances of the content and they do
track the users interaction with
the content with that regard.
So it seems like TikTok may be
collecting more information than
other as they were known for,
and it seems like it's pretty
predictive in its algorithm and
figuring out what the consumer wants.
Now getting to the key question here,
is the Chinese Government getting that
information as far as you know, and if so,
are they getting access to all of it?
Do we have an idea about how much
information they will be getting from us? So
of course tick Tock claims that
they don't share the user,
the US users data with the
Chinese Government government and
they have not shared it before.
There is no direct evidence that they that
shows that they have shared this so far,
but I think there are legitimate
grounds for concern.
Part of the reason is not just the
tick tock collecting a lot of data.
They do seem to collect a lot of
data and a little bit more than
maybe the other sort of similar apps.
I think the one big concern is that
it's a Chinese company and it is owned
by a company with the headquarters in China.
China has a long history of collecting
data about showing a lot of interest
in data about the foreigners,
the citizens of other countries.
That includes data that they can
collect from other social media
that are available on Internet.
Using Instagram, Twitter,
Google search data to collect
information about the foreigners
and sees in other countries,
they have used private electronic
and technology companies to
collect data about the foreigners.
Therefore,
Tiktok being owned by a Chinese
company with headquarters in China.
It's there is a ground for concern
that China will have significant
interest in this data and also
the national security laws in
China can compel companies within.
China with headquarters and sort of offices,
branches in China to provide access to
their data if requested by the government.
And again,
it's not clear whether those
requests have been made or not.
And if they are made,
how TikTok can't not provide the
data to the Chinese government.
I think in addition to this,
there's another aspect that should
be considered and something that
we have experienced in the US and
that's the power of this data for
influencing the behavior of the users.
So even if it's not a direct access
to the sensitive information or
national security information,
this amount of data,
this profile,
this complete 4 file of users and
algorithms that can predict so
accurately how this user's behavior,
what this user would like,
how they can manipulate and change.
The users behaviors online they can be
used for if if needed for for example
fake news or misinformation campaigns.
And we have seen those type of campaigns
affecting elections in our country in 2016,
in 2020 elections,
I mean the case of Cambridge Analytica
for instance that happened based on
a simple quiz on Facebook that the
data that was collected years ago was
used to influence the 2016 election.
We have seen a misinformation.
Um,
affecting the stock market within US.
So it's also the concern that
this amount of data,
what are the implication of
it and if there is a campaign
that this data can help with,
can be a very effective misinformation
campaign that can disrupt some
of the democratic and economic
mechanisms of our country.
So that's
interesting to me because I feel like a
lot of the concern I've heard about tick
Tock is what if the Chinese government
is gaining access to our information?
You're saying that is part of the concern.
But then the other flip side of it,
which maybe is a little undersold,
is that they can push their narrative
or whatever the Chinese wants
to push on to us as well, right.
I agreed, agreed. And China has a
history of running these campaigns,
the Chinese government on Twitter using
sort of misinformation or fake accounts.
So access sensitive information and I
believe that is even a more critical
concern given the power of influence
that these algorithms have over users.
They those 100 million users or more that
they are using it within the US, right.
They they can have a complete
profile on the side of the algorithms
and it is not very easy.
It is not very difficult to predict
right the type of behaviors and how
they can influence their behaviors.
So
I mean, I know you kind of answered
it and you alluded to this already.
So you do I suppose agree
that these growing fears about
TikTok are justified based on
what you know at this point?
I think there are
legitimate grounds for concern.
I can say from personal experience.
I have several different social
media apps on my device they use.
Tick Tock is intentionally not one of them,
mainly because of these security concerns.
There are also some recent cases
that sort of provide some evidence,
of course not complete,
but it's some sort of evidence
that are also cause for concern.
For instance, forwards reported
about a couple of months ago,
and this was based on an internal
investigation within TikTok that
some of the employees of TikTok,
they were using the data from the app to
essentially spy on a few of the Forbes
journalists who had reported about.
The relation between TikTok
and the Chinese government,
meaning that even the same personnel,
some employees within the Tic TAC and
Tic TAC has quite a bit of people who
were used to work on the state media,
for example within China and what
the interests of those people are.
They seems that they do have access
to some of the sensitive information.
So all of this,
when you bring all of this together,
I think there are legitimate
grounds for concern.
That's
really insightful information,
maybe a bit of. Advice.
So let's say for somebody who loves
TikTok and is just really into
it and just can't get rid of it,
is there anything they can do
to protect themselves and limit
the amount of information that's
given to the company here?
If you if they're using TikTok,
they should know that they are
providing a lot of information already.
One thing they can do,
they can possibly restrict the access
of the app and these apps requires
a lot of access and they have based
on because they are installed
on particular platforms like iOS
platform or the Google platform,
they have to request those access alright,
for example, access to the
location specific information.
When you provide that access,
Tiktok at any moment can know where you are.
Where you are located essentially at
real time they can locate you right?
They can see your location information,
the access for example to the contact
information, the information of contact.
Something that many of these app is
required in order to operate right?
But you should know that when you
provide access to your contact,
the TikTok can have can collect data
about your contact, their phone numbers,
their e-mail and anything that you are
keeping in your about your contacts.
They do access and they can have
access to it.
So it seems that.
If you are,
if you can somehow limit or restrict this
access and you still want to use the TikTok,
it's the only way that you can restrict
sharing some of this information.
When you are using websites for the
people who are not using TikTok,
but they are going to websites
and they are concerned about these
pixels and trackers of TikTok sort
of monitoring what they are doing.
Or even the TikTok users when they
are sort of using their browsers
on their computer and devices,
not just not the TikTok app,
particularly to go to other websites.
And there are some blockers,
there are some applications that
can block trackers,
the social media trackers that I
suggest they installed on their browsers
and then at least they limit the amount of.
Information that tick tock and
other social media companies
can collect about them.
Some
really good advice I guess.
Any final tips, tricks for or
information about TikTok that you
think the average consumer should know?
I think one general thing about
this application is that we have
to look at them as essentially
algorithms working behind the scene.
The fee that they provide
is the job of the algorithm.
The more we interact we use these algorithms,
the more we have the trace of our
behavior about what they like,
what they don't like, right.
We are feeding data to the
algorithms and these algorithms,
the way they work,
the more data you feed them,
the better they get,
the better they get in recommended.
They better they get in knowing us,
right and sort of predicting our behavior.
And at the same time if they can
predict our behavior and if they
can't predict our preferences.
What we like and what we do not like,
we should know that they can influence us,
right?
They can provide us with information
or right that can affect our decision.
In our life,
so I think we should be,
if we want to continue using apps like
tick that we have to be cognizant of this
matter matter and what we how we are,
how much time we are spending on it
and we are essentially generating
data and we are allowing them to
observe us more and do us more.
This is excellent information, professor.
So we really appreciate few minutes of
your time and thanks for letting us your
insight about TikTok and how it not only
again it's something that we're providing
a lot of information too, but it could
perhaps be influencing us as well.
So Ahmed Suramya, an assistant professor
in computer information systems
at Colorado State University,
thanks so much for taking the time to lend
us your expertise about TikTok here today.
Well, of course, my pleasure.
Thank you very much for having me.