TAKING OVER BUT OTHER THAN THAT,
I THINK THE DIVISION WAS IN THE
WORKS RIGHT FROM THE BEGINNING.
>> BUT I MEAN, NINA, TO STAY
WITH YOU FOR A MOMENT.
IS THERE EVIDENCE PEOPLE IN
EASTERN UKRAINE WANT TO BE PART
OF WHAT IS EMERGING AS A FAILED
STATE?
RUSSIA IS ABOUT TO DEFAULT ON
DEBT.
IT'S A COUNTRY STARVED
ECONOMICALLY BY THE WORLD.
IT'S A COUNTRY REVILED
ESSENTIALLY AN OUT LAW STATE.
IS THERE ANY EVIDENCE THAT
PEOPLE ARE IN A BEAUTIFUL PORT,
CAPITAL THAT HAS THIS BEAUTIFUL
WATERFRONT OR THAT PEOPLE IN
DONBAS ARE ANYTHING BUT
MISERABLE BEING UNDER RUSSIAN
CONTROL?
IS THERE EVIDENCE THEY WANT TO
BE PART OF WHAT IS EMERGING AS A
FAILED STATE?
>> WELL, THERE IS NO EVIDENCE
PEOPLE IN CRIMEA HAVE BEEN
MISERABLE UNDER RUSSIAN CONTROL.
THAT REALLY HAS NOT BEEN --
THERE IS NO EVIDENCE TO THAT AND
MANY WHO LIVE IN CRIMEA WANT TO
BE PART OF RUSSIA.
WE TALKED ABOUT IN THIS PROGRAM
NOT ONCE PUTIN CLEARLY, DEEPLY
OVER PLAYED HIS HAND AND SO
NOBODY EVEN RUSSIANS DON'T WANT
TO BE PART OF RUSSIA.
THAT IS CERTAINLY THE CASE.
BUT TO SAY THAT, YOU KNOW, THAT
THEIR NEVER WANTED TO BE THAT, I
MEAN, THAT'S WHY DONETSK BECAME
PART OF THE RUSSIAN STATE
BECAUSE THEY WANTED THAT.
THE QUESTION IS THEY WILL
CONTINUE TO WANT THAT.
300,000 RUSSIANS FLED RUSSIA
ITSELF SO THAT IS CERTAINLY A
QUESTION BUT I DON'T THINK THAT
THAT WOULD GIVE PUTIN ANY REASON
TO SAY IT WILL WORK OUT AND I'LL
LET EVERYBODY GO.
IN FACT, THE OTHER WAY AROUND.
THE LESS PEOPLE WANT TO BE PART
OF HIS STATE, THE MORE HE'S
GOING TO FORCE THEM TO BE.
SO YES, IN THIS SENSE WE CAN
TALK ABOUT RUSSIA AS A BLACK
HOLE AS NORTH KOREA OF 11 TIME
ZONES AND MORE NOW BECAUSE
UKRAINE IS ONE HOUR CLOSER TO
EUROPE.
>> YOU KNOW, BEN, THERE IS THIS
TALK OF TRYING TO COME UP WITH
SOME SORT OF PEACE DEAL TO END
THIS HORROR.
3.8 PLUS MILLION REFUGEES AND
COUNTING IS SAYING 300,000
RUSSIANS LEAVING THAT COUNTRY.
LET'S TALK ABOUT THIS.
I DON'T KNOW HOW TO COME UP WITH
A PEACE DEAL WHEN THE DICTATOR
IN RUSSIA IS DEPLOYING THE VOGNER GROUP.
VOGNER GROUP.
HE'S USING MERGE NARCOTIC RYCENA
TERRORISM IN UKRAINE.
AT WHAT POINT CAN YOU NEGOTIATE
A PEACE DEAL WITH SOMEONE LIKE
THAT BECAUSE UKRAINE IS SAYING
BEING NEUTRAL SEEMS TO BE
INMATERIAL TO PUTIN.
THEY'RE NEUTRAL NOW.
THEY'RE NEUTRAL TO WHEN CRIMEA
WAS SEIZED.
BEING NEUTRAL HASN'T HELPED
BEFORE.
WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF THIS?
>> YEAH, I THINK IT IS ALSO
IMPORTANT, THOUGH, TO LOOK AT
DONETSK, TOO, BECAUSE PUTIN
CERTAINLY DID NOT GET
RESISTANCE, VIOLENT RESISTANCE
IN CRIMEA BUT FROM 2014, YOU
KNOW, I DON'T THINK THERE WAS
SOME POPULAR UPRISING IN THE
DONBAS REGION TO WANT TO JOIN
RUSSIA.
I THINK THE RUSSIANS STIRRED UP
AND REALLY SENT PEOPLE IN TO THE
DONBAS TO STIR UP RUSSIAN
SPEAKING POPULATIONS THERE AND
WHAT WE'VE SEEN, JOY, THE
PRETEXT FOR THIS WAR WAS IN PART
THE DEFENSE OF RUSSIAN SPEAKERS
OR ETHNIC RUSSIANS IN EASTERN
UKRAINE.
LOOK AT THE PLACES TREATED THE
WORST IN THIS CONFLICT.
KHARKIV, MARIUPOL, THEY HAVE
POPULATIONS OF RUSSIAN SPEAKERS
AND PUTIN KILLED THOSE PEOPLE
INDISCRIMINATELY, RIGHT?
AND THE SAME WAY HE'S
TERRORIZING THE PEOPLE OF
DONBAS.
FIRST OF ALL, NO, I THINK IT'S
VERY CLEAR UKRAINIANS DON'T WANT
TO LIVE UNDER RUSSIA.
NOBODY HAS WELCOMED RUSSIA IN
THIS INVASION.
SECOND, I THINK THAT THE
QUESTION NEUTRALITY SURE, OF
COURSE, UKRAINE CAN AND SHOULD
PUT THAT ON THE TABLE.
WE SHOULD SUPPORT WHATEVER
POSITION THEY TAKE IN THE
NEGOTIATIONS BUT THE QUESTION IS
EVEN IF THEY MAKE A STATEMENT OF
NEUTRALITY, WHAT HAPPENS TO THAT
RUSSIAN PRESENCE IN DONBAS?
THIS IS A BIG CHUNK OF UKRAINE
AND IF RUSSIA THINKS IT WILL
DIGEST IN BIG CHUNK OF UKRAINE
AND MAYBE CONNECT MARIUPOL TO
THAT SO THEY HAVE LANGUAGE
THROUGH CRIMEA TO THE DONBAS,
THERE IS A MINIMAL OBJECTIVE
SOME PEOPLE THOUGHT WOULD BE
RUSSIA'S OBJECTIVE BACK IN
FEBRUARY.
CLEARLY, PUTIN WANTED SOMETHING
MORE THAN THAT BUT MIGHT FEEL
HE'S BACKTRACKING THAT POSITION.
IF YOU'RE UKRAINE, HOW CAN YOU
ACCEPT A HUGE PIECE OF
SOVEREIGNTY BEING CONSUMED ON
TOP OF A COMMITMENT OF
NEUTRALITY AND ALSO, IS THERE
ANY SENSE THAT THE UKRAINIANS
WHO LIVED IN THESE PLACES WOULD
SUBMIT TO THAT?
THERE IS NOT.
I THINK NEUTRAL AT THE IS AN
OPENING IN TERMS OF OKAY, MAYBE
THE BASIS OF SOME LONGER TERM
PEACE NEGOTIATION CAN
ESSENTIALLY BE AROUND UKRAINIAN
NEUTRALITY BUT AS LONG AS THESE
QUESTIONS OF UKRAINIAN
SOVEREIGNTY ARE UNRESOLVED AND
WHAT IS UKRAINIAN LAND AND WHAT
CAN UKRAINIANS ACCEPT, I STILL
THINK WE'RE MUCH FURTHER AWAY
FROM A REALLY LASTING PEACE
DEAL.
THAT'S WHY I THINK THE
UKRAINIANS ARE BEING SKEPTICAL
MAYBE THE RUSSIANS ARE DANGLING
SOMETHING LIKE NEUTRALITY IS THE
BASIS FOR TALKS SO THERE CAN BE
A SEIZE FIRE TO STOP AND SUPPLY
WEAPONS GOING TO UKRAINE AND
LICK THEIR OWN WOUNDS AND RESUME
MILITARY DEFENSE.
WE HAVE TO BE CAUTIOUS ABOUT
WHETHER OR NOT NATO NEUTRALITY
ALONE WOULD BE ENOUGH TO RESOLVE
MASSIVE QUESTIONS ARE THE
RUSSIANS GOING TO LEAVE UKRAINE
YN LAND
LAND AND CRIMEA MAY BE ONE TO
ACCEPT BUT DONBAS IS MUCH, MUCH
MORE CHALLENGING AS FAR AS
MARIUPOL AND OTHER LANDS
OCCUPYING.
>> NINA, THE OTHER QUESTION IS
WHETHER OR NOT PUTIN IS
OBVIOUSLY, YOU KNOW, HE MAY NOT
WANT TO SHOW FEAR OPENLY BUT
THIS IS A MAN THAT'S BANNED
RUSSIAN TV FROM PLAYING
VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY'S SPEECHES.
HE'S OBVIOUSLY AFRAID OF THIS
MAN.
HE UNDERSTANDS THE POWER THIS
MAN HAS DEVELOPED, YOU KNOW,
AROUND THE WORLD THAT HE HAS THE
SYMPATHY OF THE WORLD NO MATTER
WHAT MADNESS AND FAKE NAZI
REGIME B.S.
IT DOESN'T WORK.
ZELENSKYY IS WINNING THE
INFORMATION WAR AS WELL AS IT
DOES FEEL LIKE HIS TROOPS ARE
WINNING THE WAR WAR SO COULD IT
BE THAT THE WORLD'S BEST BET
HERE IS JUST TO PUT THE GAS ON,
WHICH IS WHY I THINK -- TO PUT
THE GAS ON, THE RHETORIC THAT
PRESIDENT BIDEN USED MORE
SANCTIONS, MAYBE, YOU KNOW,
MOVING UKRAINE CLOSER TO NATO
BECAUSE GIVING THEM THE JETS
BECAUSE IT DOES SEEM LIKE THAT'S
THE ONLY LANGUAGE PUTIN WILL
UNDERSTAND.
>> ACTUALLY, I DON'T THINK
THAT'S THE ONLY LANGUAGE PUTIN
UNDERSTANDS BECAUSE HE HAS NEVER
SHOWN THAT HE UNDERSTANDS THE
LANGUAGE OF FORCE.
HE HIMSELF USES FORCE AND THIS
SENSE, I MEAN, I THINK ALSO YOU
AND I SEE HE'S VERY DONALD TRUMP
IS THAT IF YOU GIVE HIM, HE'S
GOING TO GIVE YOU TEN TIMES
MORE.
I THINK THAT, YOU KNOW, I'M NOT
A MILITARY ANALYST IN ANY WAY
BUT I DO THINK THAT NEUTRALITY
IS THE BEGINNING.
ALTHOUGH, I DON'T THINK PUTIN IS
GOING TO STOP.
FOR EXAMPLE, HE TAKES MARIUPOL
AND ODESA HASN'T EVEN COME INTO
THE CONVERSATION YET BUT IT WILL
BECAUSE ODESA WAS ORIGINALLY THE
WAY THEY SEE IT AS A RUSSIAN
CITY WHY DOES IT HAVE TO BELONG
TO UKRAINE?
SO IT IS -- AGAIN, YOU CAN
RATCHET SANCTIONS UP AND THAT'S
FINE BUT THEY ARE NO LONGER
ECONOMIC SANCTIONS.
THEY'RE KILLING CIVIL SOCIETY,
AS WELL.
THE QUESTION IS WHERE SEARCH
CANCELLED, EITHER FROM THE
OUTSIDE WORLD OR FROM PUTIN AND
I DON'T THINK IT A FEAR PER SE,
IT'S THAT HE'S A KGB MAN, A MAN
ABOUT CONTROL.
WHO ARE YOU TO SPEAK UP AND TELL
ME HOW I SHOULD BEHAVE.
THE MORE YOU TELL HIM, THE MORE
HE PUSHES BACK AND SO THE
QUESTION IS DO WE REALLY WANT
RUSSIA AS NORTH KOREA COLLAPSED?
I GUESS WE DO BECAUSE THERE IS A
COLLECTIVE RESPONSIBILITY RUSSIA
HAS TO PAY FOR PUTIN MORE THAN
OTHER COUNTRIES HAVE TO PAY FOR
THEIR DICTATORS BUT AT THE SAME