John: Artificial intelligence
has been a crucial tool for many
nations' militaries for years.
Now, the war in Ukraine is
driving innovation, and as that
conflict drags on, ai's role in
it is likely to grow.
Ali rogin looks at how
militaries are using ai today
and ahead to how it might be
used in the future.
Ali: More artificial
intelligence on the battlefield
calls -- carries potential but
also risks.
Congress is pressing the
Pentagon to invest further and
move faster on ai to avoid
falling behind on this and
nimble but critical technology.
Paul is from the center for a
new American security and a
former army major, Pentagon
official and an author.
Thank you for joining us.
Artificial intelligence is
already used to some extent on
the battlefield but we're not
talking about completely
autonomous technology.
What is available currently?
What are warfighters already
using?
And then where do you see the
technology going in the near
future?
Paul: That is right.
We're already seeing ai being
used on the battlefield in
Ukraine.
Now humans are still in control
of the fighting.
But one of the things ai is
doing is helping to process
information faster.
Ai is being used to sift through
satellite images and drone video
feeds, and that helps militaries
then better understand what's
happening on the battlefield,
make decisions faster, and then
target the enemy faster and more
accurately.
Ali: So what happens when we do
consider having humans not be at
all in control when these
systems are fully automated,
what are the pros and cons of
that?
Paul: Well, we're certainly
headed in that direction.
So what happens when a drone has
as much autonomy as a
self-driving car?
We are already seeing drones
being used in Ukraine that have
all of the components needed to
build fully autonomous weapons
that could go out over the
battlefield, find their own
targets, and then all on their
own attack those targets without
any further human intervention.
And that raises very challenging
legal and moral and ethical
questions about human control
over the use of force in war.pali: We're seeing Ukraine sort
of lead the conversation in the
application of using these fully
autonomous devices.
Do you think we're going to see
more of that?
And is there concern about how
they might be used by
differently by state actors and
non-state actors like terrorist
organizations?
Paul: Well, war is an accelerant
of innovation.
So the longer that this war goes
on, the more that we're going to
see more innovation on the
battlefield.
We're already seeing innovative
uses of drones and counter drone
technologies, things like
electronic warfare systems that
can target drone operators and
then call in artillery strikes
on the drone operator.
And that kind of technology
pushes militaries towards more
autonomy.
But it is not just confined to
nationstates.
Ices actually had a pretty
-- ISIS actually had a pretty
sophisticated drone army a few
years ago, and they were
carrying out drone attacks
against Iraqi troops that were
pretty effective.
Ali: Now we've talked about how
A.I.
Is used in weapons, but how
about systems off the
battlefield?
So how does that translate to
military use?
Paul: Most of what militaries do
is not actually right at the tip
of the spear fighting.
It's logistics, personnel,
maintenance.
It's moving people and things
from one place to another on a
day to day basis.
It looks a lot like what Walmart
or Amazon do.
It's what happens at the end
that's different.
Ai has advantages in all of
those other non-combat functions
that are critical to how
militaries operate.
And if militaries can make their
maintenance and logistics and
personnel and finance functions
just 10% better, that's going to
have huge impacts for militaries
on ultimately their capability
at the military's edge on the
battlefield.
Ali: Some of what we're seeing
in Ukraine is employing
commercially available
technology that can simply be
purchased for a couple of
thousand dollars.
How is the U.S. Department of
defense dealing with keeping up
with that sort of competition
that exists?
How is that playing out?
Paul: They're not keeping up.
That's that's the short version.
They're woefully behind because
the culture so radically
different.
And the bottom line is you can't
buy ai the same way that you
might buy an aircraft carrier.
The military is moving too slow.
It's mired in cumbersome
bureaucracy.
And the leadership of the
Pentagon has tried to shake
things up.
They had a major reorganization
last year of the people working
in ai and data and software
inside the defense department.
But we haven't seen a lot of
changes since then.
And so the Pentagon's going to
have to find ways to cut through
the red tape and move faster if
they're going to stay on top of
this very important technology.
Ali: Lastly, on the global
level, as this technology
continues to proliferate, some
countries are calling for the
establishment of some general
rules of the road.
What does that conversation look
like?
What are some of the contours of
that debate?
Paul: We've certainly seen
debates over the last several
years all the way back to 2014
about lethal autonomous weapons.
There is a pretty wide range of
views on this.
And the United States, as well
as other countries like Russia,
have said that we have existing
rules.
We have the laws of war.
The laws of war apply to
autonomous weapons just like any
other weapon.
And we need to focus on adhering
to those and making sure that
any use of these weapons is
consistent with the law of war.
Ali: What about the other side
of that?
Those who say we need additional
rules and that the existing
rules don't fully apply here?
Paul: That's right.
There are about 30 countries
that have said that they'd like
to see a preemptive, legally
binding treaty that would ban
autonomous weapons before they
can be built.
But right now, none of the
leading military powers or
robotics developers are part of
that group.
And so it hasn't yet had the
political heft to get to a
treaty.
That could change as we see the
technology advance and as we
see, of course, more broadly
concerns about ai grow, as we
are seeing technology advance,
and there's more calls for
global regulation of ai.
Ali: Paul scharre with the
center for a new American
security, thank you so much for
joining us.
Paul: Fix for having me.
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