-Welcome to the show. -Thanks. Thanks for having me.
-This is so cool to have you here. -AUDIENCE: Chi-Town!
-Chi-Town? Is that what you shouted? -(woman whoops)
-Yeah, that is. That is what they shouted. -Oh, nice.
Okay. You roll with a posse. This is nice.
-It's a Chicago thing, you know. -It's a Chicago thing?
-Yeah, yeah. -They just shout this everywhere you go?
-All the time. Walking down the street. All the time. -Okay.
That could be, uh, very cool
-and then very distracting at other times. -Also. Yes.
Um, let's get into a story
that is painful and yet all too familiar
and, funny enough, not just unique to America.
But the story speaks about racism in schools
that are being closed on Chicago's South Side.
It seems like a problem that many politicians
would claim is just a financial issue.
You are a teacher. You are somebody who's worked
in this institution. What is the problem itself?
Well, the problem is that in America,
we have two different standards
for what kinds of education we want to offer young people.
And so if you have money
or if you have access to private school
or if you live in an affluent suburb,
you get access to a certain type of education.
And if you are poor and you're a person of color,
especially if you're black, you get access
to a different type of education.
-Right. -And so when policymakers
are making decisions about kids in those types of schools--
the kinds of schools I write about that people call
failing schools, terrible schools--
um, there's a different set of standards.
And when you look at those different set of standards,
how do they affect the kids?
Because when I was reading through the book,
there were instances and stories
that really go back further in time
than you would ever think the problem begins.
You know, you think, "Okay,
let's just talk about the school."
But you argue that you can't just look at the school.
You have to look at everything that led up to the school. Why?
Well, this is America,
where we know that our country is founded
on a history of institutional racism
and chattel slavery and Jim Crow
and redlining and so on and so forth.
And it may seem strange to bring those things up
when you're talking about a set of school closures
that happened in 2013,
but basically the argument I'm trying to make in the book
is that in order for us to understand
the way schools operate now,
we have to understand that history,
-and it's not that long ago. -Right.
Um, and so I wrote a book that's about 2013,
but it begins in 1916 by talking about the Great Migration
and how black people came to Chicago.
Um, and I think that that's something
that's not just about Chicago--
that's about the country we live in--
in that, in most places, if you look at the history
of how the city or the town got to be the way it is,
uh, there's racism in the mix--
spoiler alert-- just 'cause... America.
Let-let me ask you this. A lot of people shut down
in America as soon as you bring up racism or race.
As soon as you say that, people are like, "Oh, no.
Here we are again with racism."
To those who argue that this is less about racism
and more just about money, they say,
"Well, Eve, it's-it's not-- it's not about black or white.
It's about rich or poor." How do you respond to that?
Well, um, that's simply not true, um, and--
That's the first thing I would say.
Um, and that we actually know that, uh,
segregation breaks down across racial lines,
both in housing and in schools.
So, black people-- affluent black people in this country
are more likely to live in low-income black neighborhoods
than they are to live alongside white affluent people.
Low-income white people are more likely
to live alongside white affluent people.
And because that's the way housing breaks down,
that has huge implications for the kind
-of schools that we have. -Right.
Um, we also know that we don't actually save money
through school closures.
Um, and so the-the kind of budget a-argument
doesn't really stand up.
Um, but I think that it is uncomfortable
for many people to talk about race and racism.
And part of what I also wanted to do with the book
is to help people understand that racism
is a structural thing-- it's not just about what's
in your heart or how you feel or our interpersonal interactions.
It's kind of the air we breathe.
It's interesting, because th-there's specifically
a section in the book where you-- where you break that down
and you talk about how so many people feel like
the label of racism is attached to them.
-Right. -And they get defensive. They say,
"I'm not racist. I-I love these kids.
I want them all to succeed." And you argue in the book.
You're like, "Yes, you may not be racist,
"but the system itself is a racist system,
and that is something that is oppressing these kids."
Would you argue that that is where it all begins?
Because Chicago is often held up as, you know,
"America's child with issues."
-"Look at Chicago." -Right. That's one way to put it, yeah.
-"Look at Chicago's crime." "Look at Chicago this." -Right.
Would you argue that it starts at the schools
or is-- or are the schools a-a by-product of what Chicago is?
I think it's the latter. I think that, uh,
white supremacy and the history of racism in this country,
I often say it's kind of like the virus,
and these things are like the cold. They're like the sneeze.
So these are the symptoms of a much larger issue.
And so the book is about schools,
but it's also not really about schools.
It's really about the way racism and inequality
shape the way we make policy decisions
-and how that affects kids. -Right. And if somebody's
out there going, "Well, Eve, you know what,
"uh, racism's not my issue. Why should I care?
"Why should I care about a bunch of kids in an inner city
-who don't have the best school?" -Well, I don't spend
a lot of time trying to convince that person.
And, uh, you know, I think that there's a percentage of people--
I think this goes with a lot of issues we have in our country--
there's a percentage of people that are reasonable,
thoughtful, kind people who lack information,
and, those people, I invite them
and welcome them to learn from the book.
If you're a person that doesn't fundamentally believe
that it's important to provide a high-quality education
to all kids in the United States and-and beyond,
regardless of where they come from or who they are,
I recommend another book to you and wish you the best
for a merry holiday season.
If you are an asshole, do not read this book.
This book is not for assholes.
Let-let me ask you this though,
where do you think...
My publicist is like, "Oh, gosh." She's...
I think that's a great selling point.
"Goes on TV and says, 'Don't buy my book.'"
It's just like-- don't-don't-- If you're an asshole,
-do not buy the book. -Get it from the library or, you know...
The, um...
the-the issues that America faces around its schooling
are often, you know--
I guess people often point to funding.
But where do you think people can begin?
Where do you think politicians can begin
and where do you think communities can begin
in rehabilitating schools and getting them to the place
where there's not the failing schools?
I think the first thing is to understand
public schools as public goods
and that these are all of our schools.
Regardless of whether you have a child enrolled there or not,
um, this is something that all of us support
and this is something that belongs to all of us.
-And so we have to take ownership over that. -Right.
And the second thing, I think, is we have a problem
with hyperindividualism in our country.
And so people like to focus on what's best for my kid.
And, you know, uh, the Obama administration
had a policy called Race to the Top, right?
We're gonna have schools compete against each other,
-and then the best school's gonna come out on top. -Right.
And we're gonna incentivize them to succeed, right?
And you can't incentivize away poverty.
You can't incentivize away struggle.
And these are the things that kids are coming to school with.
-(applause) -Um...
(cheering)
And these are the things that-- these are the things that are--
that public educators face every day.
And so I think that, if we start seeing those
as collective problems and stop focusing on,
you know, the special kids that "make it out"
and things like that but ensuring that every kid
has access to a high-quality education,
that's something we have the means to do.
We just don't have a lot of interest or political will
to do it.
(cheering and applause)
Well, I'm hoping the people who do have the interest
and the political will read this book.
-Thank you so much for being on the show. -Thanks. Thanks.
-I appreciate you. -Ghosts in the Schoolyard
and issue one of Ironheart are available now.
Issue two of Ironheart will be available in January.
Remember, if you're an asshole, do not read this book.
Eve Ewing, everybody.