STEVEN ZUCKER: This is Steven Zucker with Beth Harris.
We are in the Portland Art Museum,
and we're looking at Robert Colescott's 1979 painting,
"Beauty is in the Eye of the Beholder."
BETH HARRIS: And so we see the artist, I presume,
looking very artisty in pants covered in paint and slippers
in his studio.
And he's sitting in front of a copy
that he's done, it looks like, of Matisse's painting
of "The Dance."
STEVEN ZUCKER: But he's not looking at the painting.
BETH HARRIS: No.
And there's a model behind him and she
looks like she's disrobing or getting dressed.
STEVEN ZUCKER: Well, hold on for just a moment, because there's
so many layers of reference here.
BETH HARRIS: There is.
There are.
STEVEN ZUCKER: It's just enormously complicated,
because we assume that she's a model because she's either
dressing or disrobing, and she's in the artist's studio.
So, of course, one thinks about "The Studio"
by Courbet for instance, right?
On the other hand, there's something sort
of very racy about the way that she's been represented.
BETH HARRIS: Artist's models sort of
had that reputation, going back.
You couldn't easily go and ask your mother and her friends
to go and undress for you.
So you had to get a woman of a kind of lower class who
would need the money and [INTERPOSING VOICES].
STEVEN ZUCKER: Fair enough.
But that's contrast against the actual nudes that
are being represented-- or I shouldn't
say actual-- but the nudes that are
being represented by Matisse.
And so that's the allowable nudity, as opposed
to something that's far less comfortable,
and maybe even less comfortable because of the race issues
here, in American tradition of a white woman and a black man.
And I think that that's something that's clearly
[INTERPOSING VOICES].
BETH HARRIS: It just occurred to me
that this is a take on Seurat's painting of the models,
the posers, where he's got the Grande Jatte in his studio,
and he's got the models dressing and actually I
think their putting on their stockings
and her stockings are so obvious to me here.
STEVEN ZUCKER: So what does it mean
to create a painting in 1979 that just references like
mad the history of art?
And what does it mean to look at a painting like this
with or without that art historical knowledge?
It's a very sort of wonderfully straightforward canvas.
In a way, it's painted in a very direct manner and beautiful.
And there is a real sense of openness to the way
that it's referenced.
But it's also playful in the way that it's painted.
And yet, it's also presuming this really deep knowledge
of our history.
BETH HARRIS: Yeah, but I am wondering
how much you need of it?
An African American artist?
I think there is enough in our culture
to get this even without all that art history.
We all know that most of the people who
are in Janson's "History of Art" are white men.
And that until very recently they
didn't include stuff from other cultures or works by women.
And then you have this African American artist, so prominent,
in the center, turning away from the Matisse.
But also-- I don't know.
How do we read this gesture?
And then the woman who looks like a hooker.
I think there's enough here that there is-- you get it
without all the art history.
What do you think about his gesture?
That's the best the puzzle to me.
STEVEN ZUCKER: I think he is looking at us almost as if he's
discerning or critiquing our view, our gaze, that's right.
And I think that that's really fascinating.
BETH HARRIS: Because the title of course, is "Beauty
is in the Eye of the Beholder."
And he's looking at us, and we're beholding him,
but we're also looking at the woman, who looks kind of racy.
And we're also looking at this icon
of the western [? canon, ?] [INTERPOSING VOICES].
What do we find beautiful?
Where does beauty lie?
Why do we hold beauty in certain places and not in others?
STEVEN ZUCKER: And perhaps it is even the art-historical
referencing somehow an impediment to, in a sense,
the capturing of beauty, or is it some way a focusing
or distilling of that beauty?
In other words, does it help or hinder?
BETH HARRIS: Does what help or hinder?
I missed it.
STEVEN ZUCKER: In a sense, all of the references
to art history.
I'm looking at Jasper Johns.
It's just the painting is completely
full of art historical reference.
BETH HARRIS: In the paint can.
You saw the Johns.
STEVEN ZUCKER: That's exactly right.
BETH HARRIS: And of course, there
is a long tradition of artists in their studio, right?
STEVEN ZUCKER: I love it.
BETH HARRIS: Me too.