joining us in studio is abby goldberg professor of psychology at clark
university anna renown expert in the area of lesbian and gay parenting she's
also the author of lesbian and gay parents research on the family's life
cycle and joining us on the phone is tom mccloskey
vice president of government affairs for the family research counsel can you hear
me okay tom artistic advocate thanks for joining us
thank you so last week we learned that property was overturned in california
but judge vaughn walker
time were you brill with this decision urges a very happy
uh... well any actually neither nine
we thought that the opinion that this one judge should not over rollover the
vote of over seven million california benefit in
well so abby let me go to you uh... the that argument but on this meeting has
been made a number of times which is the will of the people have has been
overturned
the counter-argument which which i've i've uh... taking the
i've taken to heart because it seems to make sense to me is when we're talking
about cases of basic civil rights being violated
you can just put that up to a vote right i mean that's why we have an independent
judiciary to decide you know if this is a vote that would violate the bill of
rights for example we can just put that to a vote where do you come down on that
uh... gap and that i would would concur with that to the issue of equal rights
of similar liberties should not be something that should be left up to
on you know popular vote but it's rather something that should rest on principle
you know i might mention even rest on research we shouldn't have to prove that
a class of people
is on as good as another class of people in order to for them to have a right
that should be granted them ana matically so tom as part of the family
research council with which you are vp of government affairs for is the
objection just the the the so-called legal objection widget which you just
stated earlier do you have a moral problem with gay marriage as well
football there certainly the moral problem in a lot of that goes into
the resource for the show that i children herb
fast in an environment where the mother or father
something that judge are completely just throughout in what sense that he throw
that out
what he didn't even included in this mister innes uh...
in his judgment and is rolling
so you're saying that that there is evidence which suggests that it is but
that kids do better and when they are in a home with a a male and female parent
as opposed to a gay couple is that right
ordered the evidence is overwhelming
i've just recently there is even a study by yale university
that support that uh...
that belief
went and abby happen pat either those studies what did the study say this is
really a area of expertise
yeah uh...
the body of research that for example the the proponents of prop eight have
relied on is a body of research that compares married heterosexual two-parent
families and their children
the single parent families and divorced parents families and those studies often
find the children with to marion heterosexual parents
do better in terms of serious psychosocial outcomes compared to
children single parents and divorced parents
but they're is no study
that comparison married heterosexual parents with children
married same sex couples with children so that's a big elite
fit that and think he some of these proponents are making that backing out
automatically be extended to same sex couples as well and the research that we
do have that compares heterosexual married same-sex couples with children
to not mary but same sex couples with children shows that these children are
doing just fine among showing behavior lee
they don't differ in any sort of unicycle social outcome from the
children of st parent so any sort of a lot of the body extremely
fire pronoun minimum of three wanted didn't even have the pro-ltte group
matter
asking lesbian parents uh... do you think your repair which studies that
uh...
really it was the most recent study and i know i'm afraid i do not have probably
accept locally studies said
i'm invested
simple fact is that they were so few
well i think you were going to win a study that was done eight university of
california
san francisco at a lot of precedent that when your friends at the longitudinal
all i you know lesbian parents study on in fact
that study in several recent studies are saying that it just rip relied on
parents are poor but it also or blood in t_ two reports
so teachers are a great way to provide some independent objective data
to officer kind ascertain whether these children are doing well and those
teachers reports were included in that report and those teaches portrait of
that these children again did not differ in terms of behavioral emotional
outcomes from children of heterosexual parents
so time to reach what is that the polio referring to do it does not know what
bothers you and i i do believe that one for one minute it's still distant it
showing with no control group and
simply acting then teachers were
friend of
uh... these families it is not uh... scientific poll to make
what it what about his unscientific
you have no control group you have no
uh...
you're not comparing it to other family him
your talking about a very small percentage
well the whole population it's self as a very small percentage upon the factual
and then even smaller population the get them rectified stern even enter civil
union for marriage or anything like that but i'm because it's a small percentage
does that mean any study about it would just be inaccurate because there's not
that many people to study that could go both ways could it not
and that goes beyond any study as well
um...
the right to marry is granted by the year of competition but not the right to
define marriage
and an absence that is what is being after that is what george walker tried
to do
okay but let me in the interest of not getting bogged down here uh...
timmy uh...
their i happen to believe that homosexuality is not the choice weirdest
family research council come down on that time
wanted the evidence isn't conclude group
um... and i either side so
right now it's a found a personal opinion and what's yours
my personal opinion of the vatican conclude
photo i mean i are not going to have to request in the upper noe wen
uh... of a factor not no
and should that make a difference in terms of a ruling like this
i wouldn't be why it worked
he means shades of the matter of whether it's a choice or not twice have any
should that doesn't have any legal bearing should play until i don't think
it's a now i think it's completely irrelevant again i really feel that
these kinds of decisions should be made han
whether it's a choice are not and you know
there's a lot of research showing that it's not a choice but whether it's
mission is irrelevant again to granting certain writes that human beings
should have automatically that's what this case was all about
daytona well-guarded rendered sorority restriction on
what the definition of marriage is
uh... trying to redefine it is not a right
do you think that that this type of legislation would open the door to three
women are jews are marriages between people and animals those are two talking
points a year
you are going to hear the people in animal argument from a separate
through historical evidence on other type of america's flight like polygamy
um... buddy additionally
it there are restrictions were put on
uh... marriage and there's a reason for that
here trying to redefine marriages
not quite uh... in the competition
the so if they were to be an amendment that wanted to redefined marriage as
specifically between a man woman you would also be against that right i mean
in the interest of just being un unbiased and having the same policy
about redefining things
well that's not redefining marriage when you're defining at between one man and
one woman
what to do everything if that were already defined that way at the would
there be needed to do that again i guess is when it when i think about the
defense of marriage amendments where it needs to be said
we will see these between a man or woman if it's already defined that way they
wouldn't be a need to do it again with their no i don't think so so what what
is the party you why don't understand that time explaining to me
it but i i would think you'd need it
uh... explain to me how it not defined already at between one man one woman
uh... beyond
some
usual liberal judges rulings and handful of state but this particular judges it
is a libertarian appointed by republican right so which liberal judges you
talking about
just walker
had a personal state in this rolling
uh... which american francisco chronicle of even reported about
weekend where the first one to report about
so i i don't think it's judgment actually
should be
well-taken on this case abby what do you think about that must be clear that he
goldberg professor of psychology at clark university in tom mccluskey from
the family research council the argument that this particular judge wood was in
some way biased
or not in not capable of making a their decision what was your thought on that
you know my opinion is that
who would be impartial if one's sexual orientation is sort of on trial here
what a heterosexual touches an impartial
i mean it seems like a silly argument to say that because he might or might not
be gay that has some relevancy in in the case
uh... you know again if if if he was straight and he had to get you know
argued for it the uh... proponents of prop eight which people have been saying
all that he straight you know he's clearly not impartial
i don't know about that so just because he's gay people are served jumping on
that
how did you have a lot of people sexual orientation but when you look at it
it actual supported
finding
uh... most of them are
are his personal opinion and then certainly not something that's found out
in the cms
prosecution or in the long but hold on a second abby work was not the testimony
that the judge was deciding the case on
not presented well from those who work for against
the uh... legalization of gay marriage it was not strong evidence and that is
the evidence that the judge needs to decide on is that not yes read the
eight hundred and thirty six page you know decision um... from the trial anne
really outlines and kind of at exquisite detail heidi's of areas uh... expert
witnesses their opinions the data that they presented their various
qualifications unfortunately you know fourth for proponents of prop eight the
data really doesn't support
uh... supporting amin eight it's really hard i think for anyone to argue reading
this document
how he could've possibly found for the defendants
what do you think someone you did your side here in this case just just blow
the case
the i thank you cape more that began committed to getting a member of
president he did not site
in his case uh... the overwhelming body of evidence but was presented to the
judge
i keep completely different from a rolling itself could have been written
uh... by the attorneys who are arguing to overturn proposition eight
i want to in the last minute or so we have what they want to just open up and
and fill out the
not a monkey wrench into just another thought about this entire issue
lyle menendez of the menendez brothers right now is serving a life sentence for
killing
both of his parents know since it was incarcerated he's gotten married divorce
and remarried so my question is pal is it that a convicted murderer can get
married
and that doesn't devalue marriages the turned devalue because that's something
i've heard from uh... from tom side
but the same sex couples getting married somehow does devalue uh... america
mobile how would you react to that time
well tried
charge the whole home a factual community
on the action of
uh...
of one percent
uh... i i i mean that art is the whole home a factual community
uh... elton john or press built in the course is not
so uh... i i mean an example here an example bearer ameen
pretty spears or wyoming that men and their
are forget about lyle menendez specifically do you see where i'm going
to study is a convicted murderer is allowed to marry and divorce is many
times as he wants
what does it mean
aimed at a homosexual couple is not allowed to do that but this convicted
murderer is
one right and sort of is the value of marriage so high you know many people
said you know street people are doing justice
create jobs growing up marriages you know gay people could ever do
um... but you know the the fact is and i'll just put this out there is that pop
you know
there's a lot of data set that suggests that in the country's gourmet restaurant
sex marriage has been introduced
um... in massachusetts you know we've had marriage rates extended same-sex
couples insists to tap two thousand three
there have been no
changes in marriage rates or divorce rates in heterosexual couples
there's just a continuation of existing friends so we have the day that actually
supports
that there is no affect on on the institution of marriage
um... all these fears have really not come to pass
son any response and we just have about thirty seconds left here terrible have
been overwhelming evidence hon
that the other side but shows that uh...
such relationship
but not in not only affect marriage but it can affect other
uh... heterosexual marychurch partnerships is well so what did it is
that because i've looked at data from the netherlands and massachusetts well i
i i do know that coming
are problematic unilaterally for particular
quite a body of evidence uh... showing the in the netherlands uh...
such cases are like this
i think right now it's a matter of doing track well we will do the research and
we will present all of the evidence and i think both of our guests on the phone
ta mccluskey vice president of government affairs for the family
research council in studio abby goldberg professor of psychology at clark
university renown expert in the area of lesbian and gay parenting
also the author of the book lesbian and gay parents research on the family
life-cycle thanks to both the cra for being him for calling in today thank you