MY FIRST GUEST TONIGHT IS FOLLOWING DEVELOPMENTS IN THE
WAR VERY CLOSELY. HE IS THE RUSSIAN AUTHOR AND
JOURNALIST MIKHAIL ZYGAR. NOW IN EXILE HE IS ALSO THE
FOUNDING EDITOR OF THE INDEPENDENT TELEVISION SITTER
-- STATION TV RAIN.
RESISTANCE AGAINST PUTIN TAKES MANY FORMS.
AND WE SPOKE HERE IN THE STUDIO BOTH WON GOING PUBLIC WITH HIS
OWN GAME MARRIAGE WAS AN ACT OF PROTEST.
>> BECAUSE -- MCALISTER GO WELCOME BACK TO
THE. PROGRAM >> HELLO.
THANK YOU FOR HAVING. ME WE ARE GONNA START WITH YOUR
OWN PERSONAL STORY. AND OF COURSE, YOU TWEET A
WHILE AGO. YOU SAID, IT IS WITH A
STRESSFUL TIME. AND I ALSO GOT.
MARRIED ISSUE TO PETROV YOURSELF AND YOUR HUSBAND.
YOUR PUBLICLY DECLARING TO THE WORLD AND YOUR NATION THAT YOU
ARE GAY. WAS IT A DIFFICULT DECISION TO
MAKE TO DO IT THIS WAY? >> NO.
AND AS I WROTE TO YOU WE NEED TO START LIBERATION FROM
OURSELVES. FOR ANY RUSSIAN.
ACTUALLY, FOR THOSE OR FRIENDS WHO HAVE LOVED TO THE COUNTRY.
THOSE WHO HAVE -- AGAINST THE WAR AND THE GOOD
SUM -- IT IS IMPORTANT TO DO WHATEVER
WE CAN TO LIBERATE OURSELVES AND TO LIBERATE RUSSIA.
OF THE FUTURE. TO ME, THAT WAS VERY LOGICAL.
>> OH SIGNS POLITICAL. >> IT WAS.
AFTER PUTIN DECLARED THE FULL SCALE WAR, AGAINST UKRAINE,
AGAINST THE WORLD, A FEEL THAT WE CANNOT ACCEPT THE CURRENT
RUSSIAN STATE. DID NOT CONSIDER TO BE A
LEGITIMATE STATE. CANNOT ACCEPT ALL THOSE NEW
CRAZY LAWS. WHICH THEY ARE VOTING FOR.
THERE IS NO RUSSIAN STATE FOR US.
WE IN RUSSIAN SOCIETY HAVE THE OBLIGATION TO CREATE NEW LAW
FOR THE FUTURE OF RUSSIA. WE HAVE TO CREATE THE NEW
PRECEDENTS. THAT WAS THE TOAST I DELIVERED
AT MY WHITE. A THAT TODAY WE DECLARE THE
SAME SEX MARRIAGE AS ILLEGAL IN RUSSIA.
>> OKAY, SO. LET'S --
JUST >> >> WE AS RUSSIAN SOCIETY.
OR YOU WHAT YOUR HUSBAND, MAYBE SON IN A RUSSIAN SOCIETY.
SO EVERYBODY UNDERSTANDS. BASICALLY, PUTIN HAS OUTLAWED
BEING GAY. HE HAS SAID IN HIS PREVIOUS
TIMES THERE NOT BE ANY, WHAT ARE THEY, SAY PROPAGANDA,
UNDULY INFLUENCING YOUNG PEOPLE.
TEACHERS. NOBODY IS ALLOWED TO TALK
ABOUT. >> WE HAVE SO CALLED --
FOR LOWER LAW FOR LIBERATING PROPAGANDA TO TEENS.
NOW THEY ARE CREATING THE NEW LAW THAT OUTLAWS EVERYTHING.
WE ARE GOING TO BE FINALIZED. >> WHEN DOES THAT MEAN AIRLINE
EVERYTHING? >> YOU CANNOT MENTION.
YOU CANNOT POPULARIZE THE PERSPECTIVE OF BEING GAY.
OR THE PERSPECTIVE OF CHANGING YOUR SACKS.
SO ACTUALLY, IN THE EXAMPLE. ANY POSITIVE EXAMPLE.
AND A DESCRIPTION OF A SAME-SEX RELATIONSHIP, IS A LOT.
BECAUSE THAT IS PROPAGANDA. >> WHEN YOU NORMALIZATION.
>> NORMALIZATION. THAT IS THE WORST FOR THEM.
BECAUSE FOR THAT HAVING ENEMIES FOR THAT KIND OF --
WITH RUSSIA IS NOW HAVING ENEMIES YOU CAN FIGHT WITH IS
VERY IMPORTANT. SO THAT LAW IS IN PLAY.
YOU ARE CREATING AN ENEMY FOR YOU CONSERVATIVE PART OF THE
RUSSIAN POPULATION. ALSO THAT IS LEVERAGE ON
RUSSIAN CIVIL SOCIETY. ON CONTROVERSIAL FIGURES.
THEY THINK THAT WOULD BE POPULAR, RIGHT THERE WE HELP
THEM GET THE REMAINING -- THIS STILL IN RUSSIA IS NOW
TRYING TO BE VOCAL -- >> HOW DO YOU INTERPRET PUTIN
NOT GOING TO THE G20 PLACE. AS OF THIS MOMENT HE HAS NOT
SPOKEN OVERLY BEEN SEEN PUBLICLY SINCE THE WAR STARTED.
>> THAT IS AN IMPORTANT QUESTION.
I DO NOT THINK THAT HE WILL EVER LEAVE RUSSIA.
BECAUSE NOW HE'S OBVIOUSLY CLOSE TO THE EDGE.
WE CONSIDER HIM TO BE A LOSER BY MOST --
>> OF HIS INNER CIRCLE. >> YES.
WHEN HE WAS DELIVERING HIS VICTORIOUS SPEECH, RECOGNIZING
ALL THOSE -- REGARDLESS OF --
WHO WE SAW THOSE FACES. WE WERE NOT HAPPY.
THEY WERE REALLY MISERABLE. ALL THE MEMBERS OF --
ALL THE MINISTERS. ALL THE --
THEY WERE FACELESS. THEY ALREADY UNDERSTAND THAT
THERE IS NO SPACE FUTURE FOR GAS, THERE IS NO FUTURE FOR
RUSSIA. HE IS REALLY CLOSE TO HIS
DEFEAT. YOU REALLY THINK?
THAT YOU UNDERSTAND? THAT HOW DO THEY LOOK?
>> THEY STILL PRETEND THEY ARE LOYAL THEY STILL KNOW --
THEY ARE STILL AFRAID OF HIM LIKE THAT CIRCLE OF STALIN WAS
AFRAID OF HIM. BUT HE IS NOT STALIN.
HE'S MUCH MORE LIKE HITLER. NOW THEY KNOW THAT HE IS
LOSING. THEY KNOW THAT HE USED TO BE
CONSIDERED THE LUCKY BUSTER. THEY SAID NO MATTER WHAT HE
DOES HE IS ALWAYS MORE EXPERIENCED THAN THE WESTERN
LEADERS. HE IS WINNING ANYWAY.
NOW THEY KNOW HE IS NOT. HIS ERA IS OVER.
AND HE KNOWS PROBABLY IF HE LEAVES RUSSIA THERE IS
POSSIBILITY HE WILL NOT RETURN. SO HE IS STAYING IN HIS BUNKER.
HE IS KEEPING ALL OF HIS FRIENDS CLOSE ONES CLOSE
ASSISTANCE GENERALS THEY'RE VERY CLOSE TO HIM AND HE IS
WATCHING THEM. BUT HE IS VERY CAUTIOUS ABOUT
THE ALLIANCES. WHAT THE PEOPLE ARE SAYING WHAT
THEY TALK ABOUT HIM >> I WONDER WHAT YOU'RE SAYING THAT PEOPLE
THE DARK ACID FACES OF HIS GENERALS.
SO AS YOU KNOW PUTIN DEPLOYED THE PLAYERS TO BE THE COMMANDER
TO SEE THE KHERSON MOVE. THIS IS A TWEET FROM BBC RUSSIA
SAYING THE ANNOUNCEMENT THAT RUSSIA WILL RETREAT FROM
KHERSON WAS THEATER. THE ONE ACTOR ABSENT FROM THE
STAGE VLADIMIR PUTIN THE KREMLIN CLEARLY DISTANCE HIM
FROM THIS SETBACK. >> 100%.
EVERYONE KNOWS HE IS RUNNING THE GAME.
NO DECISION CAN BE TAKEN. IT IS HIM HAVING ALL THE MAPS
AND IS DRAWING ALL THE LIGHTS AND TAKING ALL THE DECISIONS
BUT HE DOESN'T WANT TO TAKE RESPONSIBILITY.
HE WANTS TO LOOK LIKE THEY ARE TO BLAME HE CAN'T FOOL THE
PEOPLE THAT HE CAN NOT FOR. BUT HE --
THE ELITE IT'S VERY CLOSE TO THE MOMENT WHEN THE ELITE
UNDERSTANDS THAT TOMORROW WILL BE WORSE.
>> SO ONE OF THE THINGS THAT TROUBLES ME AND TROUBLES THE
WORLD IS PUTIN'S SORT OF RAISING THE NUCLEAR THREAT AND
SAYING NO TO THE NUCLEAR THREAT.
AS YOU KNOW SEVERAL TIMES HE HAS OBLIQUE LEE THREATENS IT.
THEN HE SAYS NO NO NO THIS IS NEITHER MILITARILY NOR
POLITICALLY USEFUL TO US TO USE A TACTICAL NUKE.
YOU WROTE THAT IN A RECENT COLUMN WHICH WAS TITLED THE
RUSSIANS HAVE ALREADY BECOME ACCUSTOMED TO THE BOMB WHICH
FRANKLY SHOCKS ME. YOU WROTE RUSSIANS UKRAINIANS
AND GONE A LONG WAY ON THEIR STANCE ON NUCLEAR WAR.
AT FIRST THE REST PANIC THEN CAME THE DENIAL OF DANGER AND
FINALLY THE HORROR OF THE IDEA IT COULD COME TO THIS.
NOW IT IS FATALISTIC IS FATALISTIC.
DO YOU REALLY THINK THAT? THAT PEOPLE ARE FATALISTIC
ABOUT SOMETHING AS APPALLING AS THAT?
>> I HAVE A FEELING. I THINK SOMEHOW IT'S DIFFERENT
SOMEHOW AFTER THE BEGINNING OF THIS WAR DEFINITELY THE MOOD IN
UKRAINE IS VERY DIFFERENT. THE UKRAINIANS ARE CHOKING
ABOUT THIS. YOU KNOW VERY FUNNY JOKES ABOUT
THE WAR THAT IS GOING TO HAPPEN IF THERE IS A NUCLEAR ATTACK.
RUSSIANS I THINK RUSSIANS ARE MOSTLY DEPRESSED AND HORRIFIED.
WHEN PEOPLE ARE SO DEPRESSED WHEN THEY HAVE NOTHING TO LOSE
THEY ARE COUNTING OKAY THE ATOMIC BOMB IS THERE.
BUT AFTER HER SONG I THINK SOMETHING HAS CHANGED.
AND TO MY MIND THE PROBABILITY OF THAT DISASTER IS MUCH LESS.
>> YES. >> BECAUSE NOW PUTIN CANNOT BE
ASSURED HIS LIEUTENANTS WILL SUPPORT HIM.
>> WHAT ACTUALLY FULFILL HIS ORDER --
>> YES AND HE KNOWS THAT. HE KNOWS THAT HE CANNOT ORDER
HE CANNOT PRESS THE BUTTON BECAUSE HE DOESN'T KNOW IF THE
GENERALS WANT TO DIE. >> INCREDIBLE.
THANK YOU SO MUCH. REALLY FASCINATING.