Speaker 1 (00:00): So wondering about real estate law,
what it is and what it actually looks like to practice it well you are in luck, because
that is exactly what we're diving into in today's video. Hey guys, if you're new to the channel, I'm
Angela Vorpahl of angelavorpahl.com and the Law School Network Facebook group. And I created this
video series to take a look at different legal practice areas, because there are hundreds of
them out there. And most of us have zero idea what it is lawyers actually do in each one of them.
So in talking about what these areas of law look like, what it looks like to practice them,
I'm hoping that you get a better sense of what you might like to practice one day. And speaking
of what you might like to practice one day, be sure to check out the what type of law should
I practice quiz. Speaker 1 (00:43):
It will show you what your natural strengths and abilities and interests lend themselves to
in terms of the type of law that might be perfect for you. So check that quiz out and when you're
back, be sure to smash that like button and let's dive in. So to talk through the practice of real
estate law is Annie little. Annie is a former real estate finance lawyer. She is now the founder of
JD nation, a legal coaching program that walks lawyers through job searches, career transitions,
and ascent to leadership positions. So Annie, thank you so much for being here with us.
Speaker 2 (01:14): Thanks so much for having me,
Angela. I'm happy to be here. Speaker 1 (01:18):
I'm so excited for this conversation. Let's dive in. Can you tell us sort of the ten second version
of what real estate law actually is? Speaker 2 (01:25):
Yeah, so mainly I would help people and by people, I mean like commercial developers
commercial landlords to purchase, sell refinance their pro their commercial properties or negotiate
leases either at the tenant or the landlord, and then also to help negotiate with municipalities
to get variances in zoning so they could put things on public land or on land,
that zone for other things. Speaker 1 (01:53):
Awesome. Got it. And the, what would the slightly longer version of that be,
and specifically what you focused on at your firm and maybe what some of the other lawyers at your
firm were also working on? Speaker 2 (02:05):
Yeah, so I actually, my last firm that I worked at, I, it was a co I was a real estate boutique
firm. So we represented people who were dealing with all that real estate stuff. And then of
course their associated needs. So even if it wasn't directly real estate, it's like,
you're our real estate client and we're a full service firm. So we will handle that.
But specifically what I always did during my career was particularly focusing on the
financing side of things. And so I was transactional and I did a lot of
representing banks and financial institutions in helping them to finance, usually the acquisition,
or do a refinance, a lot of loan documentation due diligence review, and like that sort of thing.
And then also doing representing commercial landlords and helping them draft negotiate
leases and close that down a little less on the tenant side. And I think that was like,
and then like I represented home builders, so like real estate development, helping them to get the
land and then to get it all plotted out and then I'd hand it off to our land use department.
Speaker 1 (03:05): Okay, great. So now a few
logistical questions. Can you share with us what sector you practiced in, in the legal industry
about how much you worked and about how much you made kind of starting out and then when you left
as a seventh year associate? Speaker 2 (03:19):
Yeah. Yeah. So when I started, it was at a really small boutique
commercial lending real estate type firm. And that was like at the time five or six attorneys.
But it was a, it was boutique because it was very sophisticated work. We did a nationwide practice
and I just kind of, I'll tell you later, but I did not plan on working there. So I got really lucky,
but it, this was in 2006 and I started at $55,000. Then a few years later, ironically,
in the midst of the great recession with the real estate crisis, I got headhunted to a real estate
boutique firm, just a few like a county over. And that was about 25 attorneys. And that was,
we specialize in all things real estate. And that also I was making like $110,000 at that point.
And just for reference, like in big law, like people at my same level were making
roughly double that like around 200,000. Speaker 2 (04:11):
So, and at my first firm we had like no billable targets or anything like that. It was like close
the deal, get paid at the deal. That was pretty much it. And it was really marketed as like a nine
to five type firm. So occasionally I'd worked till like six or seven, but it was not the norm at all.
And then when I lateral to the other firm, I was working like 60 to 80 hours a week.
But it was very inconsistent. So there'd be some weeks where I wasn't like doing much at all.
And it was, you know, some, some weekends, but generally it was like, you know, 9:30
AM to like 8:00 PM and I didn't have remote access back then cuz geriatric millennial.
So , so I wasn't like working on if I had to work on the weekend, I had to drive like
40 minutes to my firm, which I did do sometimes. And we didn't have target billables again and we
were focused more on collections, but I would guesstimate that I was billing around 600 to 17,
1600 to 1700 hours a year. Speaker 1 (05:05):
Got it. And then what would you say was the most fun part of the job and then the part of the job
that sucked the most? Speaker 2 (05:11):
Yeah. So for me the best part of the job was the, the rate at which I became pretty much
fully autonomous. So working in a smaller setting and especially my practice area, which I was
representing banks and financial institutions and closing government guaranteed loans, there was a
very set process and it was just a little bit of spice because I was closing things all over the
country, including like the Virgin islands and stuff. And so that was really interesting and
like novel for me. But there was still like a very set process and I was entrusted with starting from
like origination, like the underwriter sometimes would, I would help them write the term sheet and
then it would go out and then I would create, you know, do the loan documents and negotiate
stuff and do all the due diligence work. And then I would do the closing and be in charge of
dispersing the funds. Speaker 2 (05:57):
And sometimes I would go in person that's about as close to court as like I would get is like
physically going to a closing that was local and being there and being like, here's your check or
whatever. And here are the loan documents, please sign them. So I really enjoyed that autonomy and I
felt like a real lawyer, you know, like I, and like clients would call me and be like, Hey,
I have three new deals for you and I'd be like, oh, okay. And I'd of course run it by a partner,
but they'd be like, no, no, no, like you take it. And they kind of started assigning
specific clients to me because they liked working with me and I knew their processes
really well. So I felt pretty autonomous. But you know, the flip side of that is it gets a little
too routine and a little boring sometimes, but it was like about as fast paced as I could get
without being a litigator and had no desire to be a litigator. So that like the sort of
fast paceness the little bit of like novelty in the locale and then just over the autonomy for
sure for me was like everything. Did you ask about the worst part or am I just, yeah,
Speaker 1 (06:54): The worst part too. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (06:56): so the worst part was,
and this was at both places, you'll hear this a lot with like big law culture, but it's at all law
firms and legal departments in general is like the culture. It's very like toxic in the sense that
there's not a lot of respect for associates in the sense that partners will normally,
like, it's rare that like clients are calling associates, like they would call me,
they call the partner and they're like, Hey, we have this deal that we need to get done. And like,
people are really antsy and we need to have it done on this ridiculously short timeline.
And the partners are afraid that they're gonna lose this really good client that we've always
had. And they're like, oh sure, sure, sure, no problem. And they agree to it without talking to
anybody else. And then they show open your office and they're like, Hey, so we've got this deal that
needs to be closed by like in 48 hours. Speaker 2 (07:43):
And you're like, that takes like two weeks to close. So first of all, what would you have me
set aside? Second of all, did you charge them like a, a premium rate because this is gonna take twice
as long because I'm gonna be doing all the work at my rate instead of being able to take the time
to farm it out to other people or even have third parties do some of this for me. And they're like,
well, no, you know, we're doing it as a favor. And so, so I would do the work and you it's like
working almost like two days straight, you know, sleeping like five hours and just grinding it out,
getting it done, totally get it done. And then at the end they slash the bill, which means they
cut my billable time. So then, you know, fast forward, like a few months and they're like,
why are your billable hours so low? Speaker 2 (08:21):
And I'm like, I don't know. Why did you write so many off? So like, that was the most frustrating
part cuz I, you know, I've even talked with you offline. I'm like, man, as I'm thinking
about this practice area, I could, if I had to go back, this is still like the practice I would
choose, but I cannot see myself going back and working for this same sort of system that exists
because nobody has learned better. So in lesson until like the newer generations of lawyers
and partners change things, that is the main thing that keeps me out of like practicing.
Speaker 1 (08:56): Yeah. And that makes
complete sense. I absolutely experience everything you just said too. I think it's
the sort of most common experience across law firm cultures of these unreasonable expectations and,
and the response to everything is just get it done and you have to get it done no matter what the,
what the ask is and what the timeframe is. In terms of kind of taking it even further back
when you were in law school or right after law school, what steps did you take to get into this
practice area in the first place? Speaker 2 (09:28):
Yeah, so I actually had no desire to go into law firm life. I was in public
interest. So I had worked for my two L summer at legal aid in Delaware. It was like a real,
you know, big time paid job even. And so then they made me re-interview for a full time
position. I got it. And then three weeks before graduation, they lost the funding for my position,
which would've actually been in domestic violence. I had done poverty, law, fair housing and domestic
violence. I, that was the role. They lost it. I had three weeks to figure it out. I'm like,
do I move? Cuz my now husband was my boyfriend and he wanted to do corporate law in Delaware.
That's where you do it. And he already had a job there and we knew people there and I was like, oh,
but do I move to Delaware? Speaker 2 (10:09):
Like without a job with my boyfriend? I don't know. So I explored a whole bunch of other
things and I was like, no, I'm just, I'm gonna go and I'll do Pennsylvania and that'll be fine.
And so I just applied, there happened to be that little boutique firm and they were specifically
looking for entry level people that they could train because they had such a specific niche area.
And then the way, the reason why it worked out is because looking back, you know, to the point about
what did I do in law school to prepare myself for that? Absolutely nothing. What I did. And now that
I know I was recently diagnosed with ADHD, like at 40, but I always had it right. And so law school
was like, I was always really good at school. Law school was particularly challenging. So the
way I survived was taking, making sure once I got passed one L year, I was only taking courses that
I was interested in and with professors that I could learn from easily and found enjoyable.
Speaker 2 (11:01): And so that just, I was always really interested
in real estate stuff probably because I'm from Montana and land is everything. And so I did a
lot with environmental law stuff when I was in college and some internships. And so real estate
was really interesting to me. And then a lot of the professors that I enjoyed also taught real
estate. So it was, I did real estate, real estate finance land, use that kind of stuff.
And then, and corporate and then international constitutional stuff like, so there was like
nothing, there was nothing. But then I got to this job and they, like, they literally had it in the
interview. They wanted me to find a mistake in a mortgage. And they were like, one of 'em
was like check it out. And the other partners like I'm so embarrassed, I can't believe we're
giving you a test. This is awful. Just do your best. And I was able, I was like, oh, like this
mortgage is supposed to secure a note and it it's securing an environmental agreement. They're like,
exactly. They're like our lawyers missed that. I'm like, that's like real estate 1 0 1. So I
was like, I can do this. And they were like super impressed, offered it to me on the spot and like
went from there. Speaker 1 (12:02):
That's amazing. That's such an amazing story. Yeah. Because so many of us
wind up in practice areas because that's the job we were offered and we didn't actually
do anything to plan for that in law school. And so that's amazing that that the classes you
took because you're interested in them wound up actually leading to a job. That's so fantastic.
Speaker 2 (12:20): and that's the only way I
was able to get decent grades because if I'm not interested in something, I physically cannot do
it. My brain's like, Nope, not happening. Speaker 1 (12:28):
no projected. Yeah. Speaker 2 (12:30):
Not happening. Sorry Speaker 1 (12:31):
Does not compute. Speaker 2 (12:32):
So I got lucky, you know, and I, I, I just, I don't,
I kind of hesitate to tell people that story and, and framing it as, see, like it'll all work out
and you'll fall into this job cause I don't wanna be glib. And it, it was really scary at the time,
at the same time, like you're saying like you, you end up where you end up and there are gonna
be opportunities and you can trust yourself to like position yourself so that you can show, I can
teach myself anything. I know the basics and I'm gonna do such a good job for you as a lawyer.
Speaker 1 (13:02): And the last question that I wanted to ask you
is on a scale of one to 10, how would you rate real estate law as a practice area to someone
who's potentially interested in going into it? Speaker 2 (13:11):
Okay. This surprised me cuz I, I, I, you gave me heads up on this one and I thought
about it and I would give it an eight out of 10, which for me seems really high. But so
if you're interested in it, like go for it. And for the reasons that I've kind of hit on before
I liked that it was relatively fast paced, you know, it's not litigation, which I did not want.
So you tend to think of transactional as like very slow. And when I was going into other,
like helping with a state administration and other things to help out our real estate clients,
it was a, it was, it was a trudge. It was so slow. So this like real estate finance, it's a lot, a
little faster. There's that autonomy I was talking about for me, I'm a big picture thinker.
Speaker 2 (13:53): So it's very important
for me to understand what we're working towards here and like how all the pieces fit together.
And so working in finance, there's a beginning and there's an end and it's really hard for a
partner to cut you out of that process. Whereas in like straight real estate, it's really easy
for them to silo you out and you don't know what you're doing. So yeah, that, that's the,
that's why I gave it an eight, but the other two are because it can get kind like it's kind of
boring, it's kind of routine. And so when you're not in the negotiation or like the closing or like
the drafting, it's the reviewing and like doing the due diligence stuff. It's, it's like reviewing
title reports and organizational documents, corporate bylaws and stuff like that and
legal descriptions for real. So that was really , that's where the two fell away. But if
you're interested in a transactional practice that is closer to like active than anything.
I, and I've, I've heard this from other real estate finance lawyers who've since left too.
They're like, that's what I loved about it too. It was just fast paced enough without having to
go to court. Speaker 1 (15:03):
I love it, Annie, this was so fantastic. Thank you so much for sharing
all this information and your experiences and takeaways. I appreciate it so so much.
Speaker 2 (15:12): Ah, it's my pleasure. Thanks for having me
Speaker 1 (15:14): Big, thanks to Annie for
walking us through the real estate practice area. And if you guys have any questions for her, wanna
reach out to her and learn more. I'm dropping all of her links in the description below. So
I hope this video is helpful, guys. I hope you got a lot out of it and I will see you in the next
Speaker 3 (15:29): Class.