New Gum and Sensitivity from Crest.
>>> FOR MORE THAN 20 YEARS, Crest.
>>> FOR MORE THAN 20 YEARS, OPRAH’S BOOK CLUB WAS THIS KIND
OF SOCIAL AND LITERARY
PHENOMENON.
PHENOMENON. IT BASICALLY TRANSFORMED
AMERICAN PUBLISHING ENTIRELY.
NOW IT’S BACK.
THE BOOK OPRAH WINFREY HAS
PICKED FOR THE RELAUNCH IS THE
NOVEL "THE WATER DANCER" BY
TA-NEHISI COATES.
TA-NEHISI COATES. JOINING ME NOW IS NATIONAL BOOK
AWARD WINNER, AUTHOR OF "THE
WATERDANCER," TA-NEHISI COATES.
HOW ARE YOU FEELING?
>> I’M ALL RIGHT.
WEEK SEVEN, LIKIVES TELLINGE IVE
YOU.
YOU. >> YOU AND I HAD TALKED ABOUT
THIS BOOK FOR YEARS BECAUSE IT
HAS BEEN IN PROCESS FOR YEARS.
WHEN DID YOU KNOW YOU WANTED TO
WRITE FICTION, A NOVEL AS
OPPOSED TO AN ESSAY?
>> FANTASIES, I ALWAYS LOVED
E.L. DOCTOROW, I HAD FANTASIES
BUT I DIDN’T THINK IT WAS
POSSIBLE.
POSSIBLE. FICTION LOOKS LIKE MAGIC.
>> IT REALLY DOES, IT’S LIKE, A
HUMAN CAN DO THAT?
>> YOU TRAIN FOR IT.
BUT WHAT I QUICKLY REALIZED,
IT’S A LOT OF WORK.
AFTER I FINISHED MY FIRST BOOK,
MY AGENT WAS LIKE, WE THINK YOU
SHOULD TRY THIS.
AND IT TOOK TEN YEARS.
>> IS THERE A MENTAL SWITCHOVER
FROM WRITING AN ESSAY TO BEING
IN THE WORLD OF FICTION?
>> YES.
>> YES. THE FICTION FEELS MORE CLOSED
OFF THAN NONFICTION.
>> FROM THE WORLD?
>> YEAH.
>> YEAH. I AM OPERATING IN THE WORLD OF
CHRIS HAYES, IT’S A MUTUAL SORT
OF THING.
OF THING. WHEREAS IN FICTION, IT’S JUST
YOUR WORLD.
YOUR WORLD. EVEN THOUGH IT’S SLAVERY, IT’S
YOUR SLAVERY.
YOUR SLAVERY. YOU’VE PAINTED CERTAIN THINGS,
CERTAIN WAYS OF BEING AMONG THE
CHARACTERS.
CHARACTERS. IT’S A MUCH MORE CLOSED-OFF
SPACE, I WOULD SAY.
IT’S LIKE GOING IN A ROOM AND
SHUTTING THE DOOR.
WHICH IS SORT OF COOL, ACTUALLY.
>> I IMAGINE THERE’S SOMETHING
LIBERATING ABOUT THAT.
>> EXTREMELY.
>> EXTREMELY. >> THE BOOK IS INCREDIBLE, I GOT
TO READ IT A FEW WEEKS AGO, AND
THEN I READ THE BOOK ABOUT
FREDERICK DOUGLASS WHICH IS
FANTASTIC.
FANTASTIC. I WAS THINKING ABOUT YOUR BOOK
AND THE RESEARCH THAT WENT INTO
IT.
IT. THE BOOK IS ABOUT SLAVERY, HIS
LIFE, WORLD, HIS JOURNEY TO
FREEDOM.
FREEDOM. HOW MUCH RESEARCH WAS THERE, HOW
MUCH WERE YOU TRYING TO SORT OF
LIKE FIGURE OUT HOW TO CONJURE
THAT WORLD?
THAT WORLD? >> IT WAS A TIME.
I READ A BUNCH OF PRIMARY
DOCUMENTS, NARRATIVES, BOOKS
WRITTEN BY ENSLAVED PEOPLE OR
FREED PEOPLE.
FREED PEOPLE. I WENT TO A BUNCH OF
PLANTATIONS, WENT TO MONTICELLO,
WENT TO MONTHPELIERMONTPELIER, W
WHITNEY PLANTATION IN NEW
ORLEANS, WHICH IS OUTSIDE OF NEW
ORLEANS.
ORLEANS. YEAH, QUITE A BIT.
>> DID THE PHYSICAL BEARING OF
BEING IN THOSE LOCATIONS,
BECAUSE THERE’S THESE LONG
DESCRIPTIONS OF WHAT THE
PLANTATION IS LIKE.
>> RIGHT.
>> RIGHT. >> DID THAT TRANSFORM THE WAY
THAT YOU THOUGHT ABOUT THE
WORLD?
WORLD? >> YES.
>> YES. YES.
YES. AND THE DESCRIPTIONS ARE ALMOST
ENTIRELY INSPIRED BY MONTICELLO,
MONTPELIER.
MONTPELIER. THERE’S A LOT OF JEFFERSON,
JEFFERSON CROSSED WITH FREDERICK
DOUGLASS SORT OF THING.
IT WAS A LOT.
IT WAS A LOT.
WITHOUT THE HISTORIANS AND THE
ARCHEOLOGISTS, THERE’S NO WAY I
COULD HAVE WROTE THAT BOOK.
>> ONE THING I HADN’T THOUGHT OF
A LOT, I THINK, WHICH IS THE
PARADOX FOR THE SLAVE, WHICH IS
THAT THE DIMINISHED ECONOMIC
PROSPECTS OF THE MASTER SPELL
UNCERTAINTY AND POSSIBLY A WORSE
FATE, TO BE SOLD DOWN THE RIVER,
TO THE DEEP SOUTH, MARYLAND OR
MISSISSIPPI.
MISSISSIPPI. YOU’RE SO BOUND TO THIS MASTER
THAT THEM ENCOUNTERING ECONOMIC
RUIN CAN BE A TERRIBLE THING FOR
YOU BECAUSE IT MEANS THINGS ARE
GOING TO GET WORSE FOR YOUR
LIFE.
LIFE. >> AND JEFFERSON IS THE
STEREOTYPICAL CASE OF THIS.
YOU HAVE A GUY, FOR ALL HIS
BRILLIANCE, HE WAS A BAD
BUSINESSMAN, LIKE DRINKING
REALLY EXPENSIVE WINES, AND WHEN
HE DIES, HE’S IN DEEPLY IN DEBT.
THEY SELL THE PEOPLE ON THE LAWN
AT MONTICELLO TO PAY OR THE
DEBTS.
DEBTS. >> FOR ONE TOO MANY BOTTLES OF
WINE.
WINE. >> EXACTLY.
>> EXACTLY. MONTICELLO, WHERE THEY BUILT IT,
IT’S LIKE BAD FARMING LAND,
THERE’S NO WATER TO GET TO IT.
IT WAS A TERRIBLE IDEA.
BUT HE HAD THIS VISION OF BEING
UP ON A HILL, WHICH IN ITSELF IS
A METAPHOR.
A METAPHOR. >> ANOTHER THING IN THE BOOK
THAT REALLY STUCK WITH ME IS THE
WAY THE PLANTATION OPERATES IN A
SLAVE SOCIETY, THE SLAVES DON’T
JUST DO ALL THE NATURE, THEY
HAVE ALL THE KNOWLEDGE.
THE PLACE ENTIRELY DEPENDS ON
NOT JUST THE SLAVES’ BACKS AND
MUSCLES BUT THEY ACTUALLY
UNDERSTAND WHEN THINGS HAVE TO
BE PLANTED AND WHEN THINGS HAVE
TO HAPPEN.
TO HAPPEN. >> JEFFERSON OFTEN WASN’T THERE.
>> RIGHT.
>> RIGHT. AN ABSENTEE LANDLORD,
ESSENTIALLY.
ESSENTIALLY. >> HE WAS COMPLETELY ABSENT.
THE HUGE MARBLE COLUMNS, I DON’T
KNOW WHAT THEY’RE MADE OF BUT
THESE HUGE COLUMNS OUTSIDE OF
MONTICELLO, AND THIS ENSLAVED
MAN NAMED JUPITER CUT THE
COLUMNS.
COLUMNS. THEY DON’T KNOW HOW HE DID IT,
EVEN NOW, THEY HAVE NO IDEA HOW
HE DID IT.
I WAS TRYING TO GET ACROSS IN
THE BOOK, ENSLAVEMENT ISN’T JUST
ENSLAVEMENT OF THE BODY, RUN
OVER THERE AND PICK COTTON.
IT’S THE ENSLAVEMENT OF THE
MIND.
MIND. JEFFERSON HAD ONE SLAVE TRAINED
AS A COOK TO MAKE SURE HE COULD
HAVE HAVE ALL THESE FINE
DELICACIES HE ENJOYED.
>> THERE’S THE QUOTE ABOUT
NORTHERN MIGRATION WHEN YOU SAY,
WHAT BINDS THESE STORIES
TOGETHER WAS THE BACK AGAINST
THE WALL, RELUCTANT YET HOPEFUL
SEARCH FOR SOMETHING BETTER, ANY
PLACE BUT WHERE THEY WERE.
THEY DID WHAT HUMAN BEINGS
LOOKING FOR FREEDOM HAVE OFTEN
DONE, THEY LEFT.
I THOUGHT ABOUT THAT QUOTE,
ABOUT YOUR BOOK, AND THAT MOMENT
WHEN WE SEE PEOPLE DOING
EVERYTHING THEY CAN AT THE
GREATEST PERIL TO SHOW UP AT THE
BORDER WITH THEIR 9-YEAR-OLD,
MAYBE EVEN DROWNING IN THE
RIVER.
RIVER. >> LINKING TO THE NEWS TODAY, I
REALLY DID NOT REALIZE THIS
UNTIL ABOUT JANUARY OR FEBRUARY
OR SO.
OR SO. FAMILY SEPARATION, DESTRUCTION
OF FAMILIES IS A HUGE THEME IN
THE BOOK.
THE BOOK. AND I WAS THINKING IT’S REALLY
COINCIDENTAL THAT THIS IS
HAPPENING IN POLICY RIGHT NOW.
BUT IN FACT THIS IS WHAT YOU DO
TO PEOPLE YOU DESPISE, PERIOD.
YOU MAKE WAR UPON THEIR
FAMILIES.
FAMILIES. THIS IS TYPICAL IN AMERICAN
HISTORY.
HISTORY. THIS DIDN’T END WITH ENSLAVEMENT
FOR BLACK FOLKS.
AND SO I DON’T THINK IT’S A
MISTAKE THAT TRUMP IN ALL OF HIS
DESPISING, YOU KNOW, OF
IMMIGRANTS ON THE BORDER, IS
TAKING IT OUT ON THE CHILDREN.
I DON’T THINK THAT’S
COINCIDENTAL.
COINCIDENTAL. >> THE BOOK IS CALLED "THE WATER