LAUGH WILL HAVE.
>> IT WAS GOING TO CRASH THE
WHOLE TIME.
YOU’RE CORRECT ABOUT THAT.
WE LOOK AT THIS BOOK.
HISTORY IS OLD BUT IT RIMES AND
ECHOES AND WE HEAR THAT.
YOU’VE BEEN INTERESTED IN THE
STORIES AND BROUGHT THEM BACK TO
LIGHT FOR A DIFFERENT AUDIENCE
AND HERE WE ARE POST ELECTION.
WHAT ABOUT THIS DO YOU THINK
RESONATES TODAY?
>> THE THING THAT CARRIES
FORWARD DIRECTLY, NOT EVEN AS AN
ECHO BUT IS JUST A DIRECT LINK
IS THE FACT THAT THE PRESIDENT’S
IMMUNITY FROM PROSECUTION GOES
TO ON OLC MEMO AT THE JUSTICE
DEPARTMENT.
THE ORIGINS ARE THE SCANDAL SO
LEARNING THAT HISTORY, WHICH IS
SOMETHING WE MOSTLY LEARNED
AFTER MIKE AND I FINISHED THE
PODCAST, PART OF THE REASON WE
WANTED TO WRITE THE BOOK BECAUSE
WE DID REPORTING ABOUT THE
ORIGIN WHICH TRUMP BENEFITTED
FROM SO GREATLY, SO THAT TO ME
FEELS IMPORTANT THAT WE SHOULD
UNDERSTAND WHERE THAT POLICY
CAME FROM BECAUSE IT’S NOT WHERE
YOU THINK.
IT NOT LIKE A FOUNDING FATHER KIND OF THING.
KIND OF THING.
IT A CROOKED AGNU ORIGIN.
YOU’RE RIGHT IN THE WAY YOU SET
THIS UP.
WE HAVEN’T SEEN SOMEBODY LEAVE
OFFICE SINCE NIXON WHO
POTENTIALLY WAS LOOKING DOWN THE
BARREL OF SERIOUS PROSECUTION
FOR MULTIPLE FELONIES AND TRUMP,
CNN IS REPORTING ONE OF THE
PEOPLE TRUMP IS CONSIDERING
PARDONING IS NOT ONLY HIMSELF
BUT ALAN WISELBURG.
IF THE PRESIDENT PARDON THE TOP
FINANCIAL GUY OF HIS OWN
BUSINESS ON THE WAY OUT OF
OFFICE, I JUST, THIS IS WORTH
CONTENDING WITH THE TREAT TO THE
ARE YOU
REPUBLIC OF HAVING A FELON IN
THE WHITE HOUSE.
>> EXACTLY.
AND WHAT YOU POINT OUT HERE IN
THIS WORK AND WHAT PEOPLE STUDY
FOR LONG PERIODS OF TIME IS THE
PROBLEM IN A SYSTEM OF WHO WILL
WATCH THE WATCHERS?
THE CIA IS GOOD AT SURVEILLING.
WHO WATCHES THEM?
WHO WILL HAVE ACCOUNTABILITY FOR
THE CHIEF EXECUTIVE WHO IS
SUPPOSED TO CREATE THE
ACCOUNTABILITY?
THEY’RE TOUGH QUESTIONS AND WHEN
FACED WITH ACCUSATIONS, WE GET A
SIMILAR RESPONSE.
WE HAVE TRUMP AND AGNU
COMPARISON HERE.
TAKE A LOOK.
>> I WANT TO SAY AT THIS POINT
CLEARLY I AM INNOCENT OF THE
CHARGES AGAINST ME.
>> IT WAS A COMPLETE AND TOTAL
EXONERATION.
>> PARDONS HANG OVER NIXON AS
EVERYONE KNOWS FROM THE WAY HE
WENT OUT AND WITH WHAT TRUMP IS
DOING.
HOW IMPORTANT IS IT DO YOU THINK
WE HAVE A KNOWLEDGEABLE ENOUGH
CIVIC CULTURE TO SAY WELL, THE
PARDON IS A COMMUNATION OF AND A
REFERENCE TO YOUR GUILT?
>> YES.
EXACTLY.
AND THAT WE HAVE SOME, I THINK,
RENEWED AND MORE DISCUSSION
WHETHER THE PARDON POWER CAN BE
USED CORRUPTLY.
IF THE PARDON POWER IS USED TO
PREVENT THE DISCOVERY OF ANOTHER
CRIME OR TO PREVENT THE
IMPLICATION OF THE EXECUTIVE
HIMSELF OR HERSELF, THAT -- I
MEAN, I KNOW THE PARDON POWER IS
BLACK LETTER LAW OF THE
CONSTITUTION, BUT IT’S -- IF IT
IS USED FOR CORRUPT PURPOSES, IS
IT POTENTIALLY SOMETHING THAT
COULD BE PUSHED BACK ON BY THE
JUDICIARY.
YOU SAW THAT WITH JUDGE EMMET
SULLIVAN RAISE THAT IN OPEN
COURT WHEN HE HAD TO ANNOUNCE
FORMALLY THAT HE WOULD -- THE
FLYNN CASE WOULD END BECAUSE OF
THE PARDON THAT HAD BEEN ISSUED
BY PRESIDENT TRUMP FOR FLYNN BUT
HE SAID AT THAT MOMENT THAT IF
THE PARDON POWER IS MISUSED,
JUDGES MAY QUERY IT AND PUSH
BACK ON IT AND I THINK TRUMP IS
UP AGAINST THAT AND I MEAN, WHAT
WE LEARNED WITH AGNEW THAT THE
SYSTEM ISN’T PUSHED TO THE
BREAKING POINT BY VIRTUE OF THE
FACT THERE ARE PEOPLE IN POWER
COMMITTING CRIMES.
THE SYSTEM IS PUSHED TO THE
BREAKING POINT WHEN THE PEOPLE
WHO ARE SUPPOSED TO POLICE THAT
ARE THEMSELVES COWED OR
CORRUPTED AND AS LONG AS YOU
HAVE PEOPLE WITH A BACKBONE AND
PEOPLE WITH CIVIC DUTY GUIDING
THEM IN LAW ENFORCEMENT, THEN
THE CONSTITUTION WORKS TO POLICE
BAD BEHAVIOR.
BAD MEN AREN’T THE PROBLEM.
BAD OFFICIALS WHO ARE SUPPOSED
TO HOLD BAD MEN IN POWER, THAT’S
THE PROBLEM.
>> THAT’S INTERESTING OF THE
POINT YOU RAISED WHICH IS
STRAIGHTFORWARD BUT NOT
EXAMINED.
IF DOCTORS ARE DOING CRIME, THAT
MIGHT BE WORSE THAN A RANDOM
PERSON GIVEN THE PERSONAL
AUTHORITY THEY HAVE OVER
PATIENTS.
POLICING IS ANOTHER EXAMPLE WE
DEBATED A LOT.
THERE IS NO EXPECTATION THESE
POLITICIANS WILL HAVE A LOWER
CRIME RATE THAN OTHERS AND
DEPENDING ON HOW, THEY MAY HAVE
A HIGHER ONE.
THE QUESTION IS NOT HOW DO WE
GET ANGELS TO DO ZERO CRIME BUT
DOES THE SYSTEM WORK?
IT BRINGS ME TO READING FROM
YOUR BOOK, YOU WRITE ABOUT THE
PUSH BACK.
AGNEW SAID HE WAS WILLING TO
HAVE A SURVIVAL STRATEGY AND
ALLEGATIONS WERE FABRICATIONS.
THE WITNESSES WERE CRAZY.
THE PROSECUTORS WERE ZEALOUS AND
OUT TO GET HIM, THERE IT IS
EVERYONE, WITCH HUNT.
IF IT’S GOOD ENOUGH TO WORK,
IT’S GOOD ENOUGH TO PLAGIARIZE.
WHY COME UP WITH YOUR OWN
SLOGANS?
WHY IS IT THOSE PUBLIC RHETORIC
ATTACKS AT LEAST WORK IN THE
SHORT TERM.
ABOVE MY PAY GRADE TO SAY WHERE
WE ARE IN TEN YEARS.
SOME WORKED AT FIRST WORK NOW IF
NOT FOREVER.
>> BECAUSE IT TAKES INCREDIBLE
BRIF
BRAVERY NOT TO FALL PRAY TO THAT
SORT OF THING.
ONE OF THE REASONS I WANTED TO
DO THIS POD CAST ON AGNEW AND
WRITE THIS BOOK ABOUT IT, I FEEL
LIKE THE GOOD GUYS IN THIS STORY
NEED THEIR SONG SUNG A LITTLE
BIT.
LIKE WE TELL EACH OTHER TALES OF
HEROISM TO TRY TO HELP OURSELVES
PLAN FOR AND WISH FOR AND BUILD
OURSELVES INTO THE KIND OF
PEOPLE WHO WOULD FOLLOW THOSE
EXAMPLES AND IN THE CASE OF
GEORGE BELL, THE U.S. ATTORNEY
IN MARYLAND HE HAS LINE
PROSECUTORS PURSUING LOCAL
CORRUPTION.
THEY STUMBLE UPON WHAT THE
SITTING VICE PRESIDENT IS DOING
TAKING ENVELOPES STUFFED FULL OF
CASE IN THE VICE PRESIDENTIAL
OFFICE.
NIXON AT THE START OF IT, LEANS
ON BELL AND TELLS HIM TO DROP
IT.
HIS BROTHER HELPED INTO OFFICE
BY AGNEW TELLS HIM TO DROP THE
PROSECUTION.
GEORGE H.W. BUSH LEANS ON HIM
AND TELLS HIM TO DROP THE
PROSECUTION AND HE SUBSTANTIALTA
IT AND DOES WHAT IS RIGHT.
THAT IS EXTRAORDINARY CIVIC
HEROISM AND GEORGE BELL SHOULD
BE FAMOUS FOR IT.
HE’S PASSED NOW BUT I THINK HIS
STORY CAN STRENGTHEN OUR OWN
SPINES NOW TO DO THE RIGHT THING