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>>> WELCOME BACK.
>>> WELCOME BACK. THE PANEL IS HERE.
THE PANEL IS HERE. NBC NEWS WHITE HOUSE
NBC NEWS WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT PETER ALEXANDER,
CORRESPONDENT PETER ALEXANDER, KIMBERLY ATKINS, SHAWNA THOMAS,
KIMBERLY ATKINS, SHAWNA THOMAS, BUREAU CHIEF FOR VICE NEWS, AND
BUREAU CHIEF FOR VICE NEWS, AND LOS ANGELES TIMES COLUMNIST
LOS ANGELES TIMES COLUMNIST JONAH
JONAH JONAH GOLDBERG.
JONAH GOLDBERG. WELCOME, ALL.
WELCOME, ALL.
SHAWNA, I FEEL LIKE -- AND I WORRIED ABOUT THIS GOING INTO
WORRIED ABOUT THIS GOING INTO BOTH OF THOSE INTERVIEWS, THAT I
BOTH OF THOSE INTERVIEWS, THAT I WOULD COME OUT OF IT WITH NO
WOULD COME OUT OF IT WITH NO ANSWERS.
ANSWERS.
AND WERE IN THIS CUL-DE-SAC. IT FEELS AS IF -- AND I THINK
IT FEELS AS IF -- AND I THINK ITS BECAUSE OF THE PRESIDENT,
ITS BECAUSE OF THE PRESIDENT, BUT I DONT KNOW HOW WE GET OUT
BUT I DONT KNOW HOW WE GET OUT OF THIS CUL-DE-SAC.
OF THIS CUL-DE-SAC. >> I THINK SECRETARY -- FORMER
>> I THINK SECRETARY -- FORMER SECRETARY JEH JOHNSONS OP-ED IN
SECRETARY JEH JOHNSONS OP-ED IN THE POST WAS INTERESTING BECAUSE
THE POST WAS INTERESTING BECAUSE HE BASICALLY SAID COMPREHENSIVE
HE BASICALLY SAID COMPREHENSIVE IMMIGRATION REFORM IS SUPER
IMMIGRATION REFORM IS SUPER
HARD.
WE TRIED IT DURING THE OBAMA
ADMINISTRATION, DIDNT GET IT
DONE EVEN THOUGH THERE WAS SOME
BIPARTISAN AGREEMENT.
>> THEY TRIED IT IN THE BUSH ADMINISTRATION, AND IT DIDNT
ADMINISTRATION, AND IT DIDNT GET DONE.
GET DONE.
>> EVEN THOUGH THERE WAS
BIPARTISAN AGREEMENT ON WHAT TO
DO.
THE THING I KEEP WONDERING IS
THE SAME QUESTION YOU ASKED HIM,
WHICH IS, OKAY, REPUBLICANS AND
DEMOCRATS, YOU BOTH ACKNOWLEDGE
THAT KIDS IN CAGES AND THOSE
PHOTOS YOU SHOWED BEFORE WE WENT
TO BREAK IS TERRIBLE.
THIS IS NOT HOW AMERICA TREATS
PEOPLE.
WE DONT HAVE ENOUGH SPACE IN
HHS FACILITIES TO MOVE PEOPLE,
WHICH IS WHY ITS TAKING SO
LONG.
WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO?
AND YOU ARE GOING TO HAVE TO GET
TOGETHER AND MAYBE FORCE THE
PRESIDENT INTO DOING SOMETHING.
I THINK THE OTHER THING WE KNOW
IS THE PRESIDENT THINKS THIS IS
A DETERRENT.
AND EVERY TIME WE PUT THESE
PICTURES OUT THERE, ITS A
DETERRENT.
AND HE IS NOT --
>> IS IT?
>> WELL --
>> WHATS THE EVIDENCE ITS A DETERRENT?HE EVIDENCE ITS A
DETERRENT?
RIGHT?
>> BUT HES HOPING ITS A DETERRENT. HOPING ITS A
DETERRENT.
AND IF PEOPLE COME OUT AND THEIR
STORIES ARE TERRIBLE, MAYBE HE
WILL END UP GETTING WHAT HE
WANTS OUT OF THAT.
>> JONAH, I HAVE A FEELING IF
THE PRESIDENT -- CAPITOL HILL
COULD SOLVE THIS IF THE
PRESIDENT WERE INVOLVED. >> OH, THAT IS A TRUE STATEMENT
>> OH, THAT IS A TRUE STATEMENT ABOUT MANY THINGS.
ABOUT MANY THINGS.
BUT LOOK, ITS TELLING. THAT VIDEO YOU SHOWED AT THE
THAT VIDEO YOU SHOWED AT THE BEGINNING OF SARAH FABIAN, THE
BEGINNING OF SARAH FABIAN, THE
TRUMP ADMINISTRATION LAWYER,
DEFENDING THOSE CONDITIONS,
WHATS LEFT OUT IN A LOT OF
MEDIA COVERAGE IS THAT WAS A
CASE FROM THE OBAMA
ADMINISTRATION.
THE POINT BEING THAT THIS IS
ACTUALLY A BIGGER PROBLEM THAN
TRUMP.
THE NATURE OF THE IMMIGRANTS WHO
ARE TRYING TO CROSS THE BORDER
IS DIFFERENT THAN WHAT OUR
SYSTEM WAS SET UP TO DEAL WITH.
IT USED TO BE ABLE-BODIED,
SINGLE MEN, MOSTLY FROM MEXICO, COMING ACROSS THE BORDER.EXICO,
COMING ACROSS THE BORDER. WE HAVE A LEGAL SYSTEM TO DEAL
WE HAVE A LEGAL SYSTEM TO DEAL
WITH THAT. NOW BECAUSE OF THE FLORES
NOW BECAUSE OF THE FLORES DECISION AND OTHER ASPECTS OF
DECISION AND OTHER ASPECTS OF OUR LAW, YOU HAVE CENTRAL
OUR LAW, YOU HAVE CENTRAL
AMERICANS BRINGING SMALL KIDS.
THEY BASICALLY ARE USING THESE
KIDS, SOMETIMES THEYRE NOT
THEIR OWN KIDS, SOMETIMES THEY ARE, OBVIOUSLY, USING THESE KIDS
ARE, OBVIOUSLY, USING THESE KIDS AS A PASS TO GET ACROSS THE
AS A PASS TO GET ACROSS THE BORDER.
BORDER.
AND JEH JOHNSON IS ABSOLUTELY RIGHT.H JOHNSON IS ABSOLUTELY
RIGHT.
WILL HURD IS ABSOLUTELY RIGHT.
IF WE DONT DEAL WITH THE
PROBLEM AS IT ACTUALLY EXISTS
RATHER THAN THE ONE WE IMAGINE
IT TO BE, IT CREATES -- AS THE
OBAMA ADMINISTRATION DISCOVERED,
IT CREATES A PERVERSE INCENTIVE TO SEND MORE PEOPLE TO THENTIVE
TO SEND MORE PEOPLE TO THE BORDER.
BORDER.
>> BUT THE INCENTIVE IS ALSO
BEING EXACERBATED BY THE TRUMP
ADMINISTRATION AND BY TRUMP AND
HIS POLICIES AND RHETORIC ITSELF.ICIES AND RHETORIC
ITSELF.
TALKING ABOUT CUTTING AID TO THESE COUNTRIES.TTING AID TO
THESE COUNTRIES. USING KIDS, I DONT KNOW IF
USING KIDS, I DONT KNOW IF THEYRE SO MUCH USING KIDS.
THEYRE SO MUCH USING KIDS.
THE VAST MAJORITY OF THE TIME,
CHILDREN COME WITH A FAMILY
MEMBER.
IF IT IS NOT A PARENT, THEYRE
TREATED AS IF THEYRE AN UNACCOMPANIED MINOR. AN
UNACCOMPANIED MINOR. THESE ARE PEOPLE COMING AS
THESE ARE PEOPLE COMING AS
FAMILIES, ESCAPING ATROCIOUS
CONDITIONS.
IF THEY SEE WHATS HAPPENING AT
THE BORDER, IF THEY KNOW, THAT
JUST TELLS YOU HOW ATROCIOUS
THESE CONDITIONS ARE.
BUT THE PRESIDENT SEES THIS NOT
ONLY AS A DETERRENT, BUT HE SEES
IT AS A POLITICAL ADVANTAGE.
HE SEES HES BEING TOUGH ON IMMIGRATION.BEING TOUGH ON
IMMIGRATION.
THATS WHAT HIS PEOPLE WANT.
THATS WHY HE STOOD UP IN 2017 AND 2018, HE HAD AN OPPORTUNITY
AND 2018, HE HAD AN OPPORTUNITY TO DO IMMIGRATION REFORM.
TO DO IMMIGRATION REFORM. HE COULD HAVE SAID, I DID WHAT
HE COULD HAVE SAID, I DID WHAT
BUSH AND OBAMA COULDNT DO. AND HE WALKED AWAY FROM IT, BOTH
AND HE WALKED AWAY FROM IT, BOTH TIMES, BECAUSE HE THOUGHT IT WAS
TIMES, BECAUSE HE THOUGHT IT WAS POLITICAL.
POLITICAL.
>> IM STRUCK BY A COUPLE THINGS.TRUCK BY A COUPLE
THINGS.
FIRST OF ALL, THE PRESIDENT HAD A DIFFERENT REACTION WHEN HE SAW
A DIFFERENT REACTION WHEN HE SAW THOSE SYRIAN CHILDREN.
THOSE SYRIAN CHILDREN.
OBVIOUSLY THE CIRCUMSTANCES WERE
DIFFERENT.
HE SAW THE IMAGES OF WHAT WAS
TAKING PLACE TO THESE CHILDREN
OVERSEAS.
HE THOUGHT THE SOLUTION WAS
EASY.
I COULD BOMB THESE RUNWAYS.
DIDNT HURT ANYBODY AND I GOT TO
BE THE HERO.
WHY HASNT HE HAD THE SAME
IMPACT -- WHY HASNT HE SHOWN
THE SAME EMPATHY TO SOME OF THESE CHILDREN IN THE UNITED
THESE CHILDREN IN THE UNITED STATES?
STATES?
I SPOKE TO A TRUMP ALLY WHO SAID
ITS BECAUSE THE PRESIDENT
THINKS THIS IS MORE COMPLICATED,
SOME PEOPLE SAY HES THE BAD
GUY.
SO CLEARLY THE BAD GUY HAS TO BE
THE DEMOCRATS.
THE PRESIDENT IS SO FOCUSED ON
MARKETING AND SELLING, RIGHT?
SO THIS IS ALL ABOUT -- THATS
WHY HE PUT OUT THE TWEET SAYING
WERE GOING TO DEPORT MILLIONS AND MILLIONS OF THESEMILLIONS
AND MILLIONS OF THESE
UNDOCUMENTED IMMIGRANTS.
CHUCK, THEY HAVE 6,000
DEPORTATION OFFICERS IN THE
COUNTRY.
YOURE NOT DEPORTING MILLIONS OF
PEOPLE.
>> BUT HELL KEEP SAYING.
>> OF COURSE, BECAUSE THE BOTTOM
LINE IS THE MESSAGE. >> WHICH BRINGS ME TO THE
>> WHICH BRINGS ME TO THE CENSUS.
CENSUS.
WHY DOES HE CONTINUE TO FIGHT THIS?OES HE CONTINUE TO FIGHT
THIS?
HE NEEDS TO BE SEEN BY HIS BASE AS FIGHTING, BUT IF HE WAS BASE
AS FIGHTING, BUT IF HE WAS TRYING TO MAKE A LEGAL ARGUMENT
TRYING TO MAKE A LEGAL ARGUMENT
TO GET IT BACK, THIS COMMENT
HERE DESTROYED ANY CHANCE OF
THAT.
TAKE A LISTEN.
>> WELL, YOU NEED IT FOR MANY
REASONS.
NUMBER ONE, YOU NEED IT FOR
CONGRESS.
YOU NEED IT FOR CONGRESS, FOR
DISTRICTING.
YOU NEED IT FOR APPROPRIATIONS.
WHERE ARE THE FUNDS GOING?
HOW MANY PEOPLE ARE THERE? ARE THEY CITIZENS?E THERE?
ARE THEY CITIZENS?
ARE THEY NOT CITIZENS?
YOU NEED IT FOR MANY REASONS.
>> SHAWNA.
>> YEAH, I MEAN, NUMBER ONE IN THIS COUNTRY, WHEN WE REDISTRICT
THIS COUNTRY, WHEN WE REDISTRICT BASED ON THE CENSUS, WE DO IT
BASED ON THE CENSUS, WE DO IT BASED ON PERSONS, NOT CITIZENS.
BASED ON PERSONS, NOT CITIZENS.
WHAT EVERYONE IS SAYING IS WHEN HE SAYS THAT, IS HE TRYING TOEN
HE SAYS THAT, IS HE TRYING TO TURN THIS INTO A PLOY WHERE WE
TURN THIS INTO A PLOY WHERE WE
REDISTRICT BASED ON CITIZENSHIP? IF THATS THE CASE, WHAT A LOTIP?
IF THATS THE CASE, WHAT A LOT OF PEOPLE HAVE SAID IS THAT
OF PEOPLE HAVE SAID IS THAT MEANS REPUBLICANS ARE AN
MEANS REPUBLICANS ARE AN ADVANTAGE.
ADVANTAGE.
WHITE PEOPLE HAVE AN ADVANTAGE.
BUT THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT HAS
SPECIFICALLY SAID IN THIS CASE THAT IT HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH
THAT IT HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH DISCRIMINATION.
DISCRIMINATION.
THE SUPREME COURT DIDNT EVEN
TAKE THAT PART UP.
THEY DIDNT LET THEM TAKE THAT
PART UP.
NOW THE MARYLAND JUDGE IS
LETTING THEM TAKE THAT PART UP. NOW THE PEOPLE ON THE OTHER UP.
NOW THE PEOPLE ON THE OTHER SIDE, THE PLAINTIFFS, HAVE THIS.
SIDE, THE PLAINTIFFS, HAVE THIS. >> BUT JONAH, I DONT MEAN TO BE
>> BUT JONAH, I DONT MEAN TO BE
THIS CYNICAL HERE, BUT THE PRESIDENT IS GOING TO CONTINUE
PRESIDENT IS GOING TO CONTINUE TO TALK ABOUT IT, AND EVEN
TO TALK ABOUT IT, AND EVEN
THOUGH IT WONT BE ON THE FORM, MANY HISPANICS MAY HEAR THAT IT
MANY HISPANICS MAY HEAR THAT IT IS ON THE FORM OR MAY FEAR THAT
IS ON THE FORM OR MAY FEAR THAT ITS ON THE FORM.
ITS ON THE FORM.
HE HAS NOW SAID IT ENOUGH, AND
MAYBE THATS -- THE DAMAGE IS
DONE.
>> MAYBE.
THERES A WHIFF OF
FOUR-DIMENSIONAL CHESS THAT
YOURE DESCRIBING.
>> WELL, AND HES NEVER A
FOUR-DIMENSIONAL PLAYER.
>> WE SHOULD BE CLEAR.
I ACTUALLY THINK THE EXECUTIVE
BRANCH HAS EVERY CONSTITUTIONAL
RIGHT TO ACTUALLY ASK ABOUT CITIZENSHIP AND NATIVITY, WHICH
CITIZENSHIP AND NATIVITY, WHICH IT DID FOR ABOUT 190 YEARS.
IT DID FOR ABOUT 190 YEARS. THIS WAS A COMPLETELY UNFORCED
THIS WAS A COMPLETELY UNFORCED ERROR WHICH JUSTICE ROBERTS
ERROR WHICH JUSTICE ROBERTS
BASICALLY SAID IF YOU HADNT SCREWED UP THE WAY YOU DID THIS,
SCREWED UP THE WAY YOU DID THIS, YOU COULD ASK IT.
YOU COULD ASK IT.
THE PROBLEM IS TRUMP IS NOT GETTING THAT MESSAGE, ANDOT
GETTING THAT MESSAGE, AND THEYRE NOT GETTING THEIR DUCKS
THEYRE NOT GETTING THEIR DUCKS IN A ROW.
IN A ROW.
IF THEY JUST WERE LESS ON THE
CRAZY TRAIN, THEY COULD GET SOME
OF THE THINGS THEY WANT DONE.
>> ITS A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN
GROWING PAINS AND THE PAINS OF
NOT GROWING.
I WAS SO STRUCK BY WHAT THE
LAWYERS SAID WHEN THEY WERE
DISCUSSING THIS.
THE LAWYERS SAID, AS THE TWEET
CAME OUT, THIS WAS THE FIRST
TIME THE LAWYER HEARD ABOUT IT.
QUOTE, IM GOING TO DO MY
ABSOLUTE BEST TO FIGURE OUT
WHATS GOING ON HERE.
>> BY THE WAY, I WANT TO TAKE
THAT QUOTE -- WE SHOULD QUICKLY
PUT IT UP.
IT COULD APPLY TO EVERY TWEET HE HAS EVER SAID TO ANYERY TWEET HE
HAS EVER SAID TO ANY ADMINISTRATION OFFICIAL.
ADMINISTRATION OFFICIAL.
HERE IT IS.
THE TWEET THIS MORNING WAS THE
FIRST I HAD HEARD OF THE
PRESIDENTS POSITION ON THIS
ISSUE, JUST LIKE THE PLAINTIFFS
AND YOUR HONOR.
I DO NOT HAVE A DEEPER
UNDERSTANDING OF WHAT THAT MEANS
AT THIS JUNCTURE OTHER THAN WHAT
THE PRESIDENT HAS TWEETED.
BUT OBVIOUSLY AS YOU CAN
IMAGINE, IM DOING MY ABSOLUTE
BEST TO FIGURE OUT WHATS GOING
ON.
>> ITS ALSO THE CONVERSATION WE
ALL HAD WITH OUR BOSSES. >> IT IS THE -- THAT IS, TO ME,
>> IT IS THE -- THAT IS, TO ME, THE QUOTE OF THE ADMINISTRATION.
THE QUOTE OF THE ADMINISTRATION.
>> THE BOTTOM LINE IS HE HAS THE
PERCEPTION OF FIGHTING.
THATS WHY THERES ALL THIS
SHIFTING GOING ON BEHIND THE
SCENES TO FIGURE OUT WHAT TO DO.